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Does constructive critic really works? - Madzia - 06-06-2013
I'm thinking lately a lot how the critic really work on you. Are you a person who need harsh critic to get back to work or are you the worst hater by yourself and need others to tell you nice things and prove you wrong? Is it changes with time? Because when I started as an teenager posting on internet my lame pictures I've got so much negative comments I just shot down all my profiles. I figured out it's too stressful and I will get better by just studying on my own. I don't regret that, otherwise I would just become what other was expecting from me.
I will quote here something from Telthona:
"What's good in giving only positive feedback:
you motivate artist to work more
It's excavate good sides of style
Artist don't focus on errors so he/she is going to experiment more
Artist get more self confident. It help them make rational decisions on their own."
This really stuck in my head. What do You think? Is there healthy balance? Or rule how good you and receiver need to be in art to give constructive critic?
How is it with work, when you what to direct someone how to get better results? And you don't have time to just wait for them to figure it out on their own.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - EduardoGaray - 06-06-2013
i believe that constructive critic is always helpful, it all depends on how you take it.
When you critic, you have to be honest, if someone's work sucks, you have to be honest and say it. (as politely as you can, of course)
Just giving people undeserved pats on the back wont make them any good.
With that said, i believe the best form of critique is a method used commonly by teachers.
Say two bad things, then end the critique with something positive, that way you are saying the truth, and are still positive.
In my own experience, when i started to post things on the net looking for critique, my first stop was conceptart.org. And everytime i posted something, no matter how "proud" or something like that i was, my work was always brutalized in the wip section. The critiques were harsh, but always helpful. That humbled me and made me realize how really big the world is, and how much i will have to work to really get better. :)
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Triggerpigking - 06-06-2013
I always like getting constructive criticism, I can't really recall any point where i've got any uneedlessly harsh ones though.
I think it's good to listen to them as long as you don't use them like a crutch and try to think about what you need to improve on yourself as people are'nt always going to be leading you along with helpful crits.
I also think it's fine to get crits from people who are under your skill level as long as you take them with a grain of salt (unless the person really clearly knows what he's talking about) albiet it's probbly a safe idea to take most crits with a grain of salt.
I think more then anything else crits should be used to draw your attention to a problem and then you should think about how to fix it yourself and not just blindly follow any crits you get.
edit: EduardoGaray ctrl paint made a vid on crits a while back slighlty different from how you mentioned though he said one good thing then one bad thing then another good thing or it was 1 bad 1 good and then 1 bad again I can't quite remember.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Madzia - 06-06-2013
So you're saying you never got defensive? you never tried to make excuses why you did your art in this way that someone thought is bad? You always understand every constructive critic that was provided to you even at the beginning? Like, you know at the very begging when you have vague concept of many thinks. If you can recall this happening to you did it helped you or make you depressed?
I know when you're stepping in artistic group you should leave your ego outside the door. You should learn how to be humble really fast.
But really my question is what helps you make the fastest improvement? Was it constructive critic to your pictures or was you watching others how they're dealing with problems. I'm starting to think you learn most from others mistakes. I learned most important things from books. Because they have simple examples, your own pictures can be too complicated to understand obvious mistakes.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - SpectreX - 06-06-2013
Well, I'm at the pretty start of the art road and it always gives me a boost when someone gives some constructive criticism on the studies that I do. And I do mean a huge boost!
Besides that, I usually take in account what people say and play around with their suggestions.
It does help do try things on a different way like they propose.
Do I get better from watching other people work and solve their problems? I think not so much as it's mostly about producing massive amounts of work to get better.
And the playing around with the constructive criticism.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - EduardoGaray - 06-06-2013
yeah at first i was very defensive haha, always making excuses about this and that.
But just at the beginning, when i realized that the people giving me critiques was just trying to help me i left the ego behind and started thinking rationally.
Also, what triggerpigking says is true, there is no guarantee that every critique given to you will be helpful, thats why is so important to think for yourself and question every critique (which is completely different from making excuses)
Also, i never saw that video triggerpigking, but yeah it is essentially the same method of critique.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Vandall - 06-06-2013
When I first started posting my work online, I decided to try stick some things up on Concept Art. By god they tore me to shreds, the guys here are a bunch of kittens compared to the scathing crits some people back then would give, and you couldnt tell them to get stuffed because behind the veil of acid they were giving you gems of knowledge.
I'm of the opinion that harsh critique is good, especially for someone looking to get into any sort of work where your work is judged by a boss or client, they will tell you if it looks like shit. Hell if I'm critiquing someones work and I notice something off I will say it, and usually its pretty blunt because thats how I learnt, and I prefer people who critique my work don't hold back, why? Because if theyre busy trying to protect my feelings theyre not helping me learn.
Alot of begining artists have very thin skin about their work. but critique is invaluable, you cant see whats wrong with your work alot of the time because you've been working on it and youre ituned to the piece, you might get the feeling somethings off but if youre just starting out its not going to be apparent to you (this is also why everyone tells you to flip the canvas) critique helps you find those pieces that are weaker and work on them, and can give you invaluable direction.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Rognoll - 06-06-2013
I agree with Vandall, but I think there are ways to critizise. One thing is saying something like "his nose looks weird, you should check the nostrils again" And a different thing is saying stuff like "lol, he looks like he's smelling a fart" Both give you the same gems of knowledge, only one of them is covered in unnecesary rocky douchebaggery.
While I think negative critics are vital for one's improvement (actually, I think one gets to a point where it's impossible to keep improving without it), I can only say two things:
-Don't get offended, try to be objective about the critic. (like Eduardo said)
-Don't be an asshole yourself while giving critics.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Vandall - 06-07-2013
I totally agree Rognoll, theres no reason to be unnessecarily harsh while giving out a crit, but theres also nothing to gain truthfully by sugar coating a crit. I used to hate alot of members on CA when I used to post there a long time ago, at least until I realised why they acted that way and spoke to me like that. Then I actually appreciated it, it broke me out of alot of crutches I had.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Madzia - 06-07-2013
(06-06-2013, 10:02 PM)Vandall Wrote: ... the guys here are a bunch of kittens compared to the scathing crits some people back then would give...
Yeah, I know worst places where others would just stab you with enjoyment xD
(06-06-2013, 10:02 PM)Vandall Wrote: Alot of begining artists have very thin skin about their work. but critique is invaluable, you cant see whats wrong with your work alot of the time ...
In part I agree with you but it's not necessarily to make progress. That depends on personality a lot, if you are disciplined, know how to find good resources and maintain studying and drawing you will get the same result. My friend tried to convince me that I will never achieve anything If I close myself in closet. But I made huge progress on my own. My self hatred is really big xD And my inside criticism was pushing me forward all the time.
(06-06-2013, 10:02 PM)Vandall Wrote: I'm of the opinion that harsh critique is good, especially for someone looking to get into any sort of work where your work is judged by a boss or client, they will tell you if it looks like shit. Hell if I'm critiquing someones work and I notice something off I will say it, and usually its pretty blunt because thats how I learnt, and I prefer people who critique my work don't hold back, why? Because if theyre busy trying to protect my feelings theyre not helping me learn.
That worries me a little. You should be honest, especially if it's work for money and you expect certain level of quality. At the same time if you work with other artists You need to care about their feeling, otherwise everyone will get so stressed, start to hate you, hate job and never give their best because their motivation is gone.
It's freaking hard to get this shit together and make good conclusions. If we assume the artist is high motivated person willing to learn then constructive critique will benefit him. Because he/she is his own boss and know how much he can demand from self. He can filter informations and choose with one are important.
But if that depends on someone else and if the artist is not self confident and with every next feedback he begin to feel he's not going to meet the requirement of quality. He will start to feel helplessly.
If you where a friend to this person, or worst if you where his leader and you're seeing what's going on, what would you do? Shout him in face how much he's behind and he need to catch up fast, or try to be polite?
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Rognoll - 06-07-2013
This may be helpful.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Madzia - 06-07-2013
thanks, but it's now quite what I'm looking for. I just wonder how to lead other to success.
I found few articles and they are pretty informative.
http://brau3d.blogspot.com/2011/11/igda-leadership-forum-session-notes.html
http://willkowach.blogspot.com/2011/12/stunted-growth-being-positive-art-lead.html
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Vandall - 06-07-2013
Again its not about being a bastard, but its also not about sugar coating it. And critique isnt there for motiviation, if it does motivate you, good. But its there to point out flaws in your work that you should focus on fixing that you would not have seen yourself because almost every artist needs fresh eyes to see the mistakes theyve made, without that youd improve very slowly upon your unseen mistake.
Im also of the belief to be a successful artist you should grow a thick skin about your art work. Value your time and work but dont be so defensive about each piece youre blinded to your own mistakes.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Tyrus - 06-12-2013
Quote: Im also of the belief to be a successful artist you should grow a thick skin about your art work. Value your time and work but dont be so defensive about each piece youre blinded to your own mistakes.
That's true for almost anything, really. It actually boggles the mind to think that people wouldn't to be told what's wrong with something you made/done and how to correct it.
Then again (aside from on CA.org) whenever I give critique to others their response usually isn't so great. I'm afraid to give it here for those exact reasons.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Madzia - 06-12-2013
(06-12-2013, 02:45 AM)Tyrus Wrote: whenever I give critique to others their response usually isn't so great. I'm afraid to give it here for those exact reasons.
The responses aren't so great but still giving critique on forum is probably more beneficial for person who analyze picture than for the artist oneself. Because you are learning on mistakes of others and anyone who will read your critique will analyze and learn how to spot problems you pointed. Author of the picture suffers the most but for the sake of the community xD
In my opinion don't think you have to teach someone how to not suck but think you're learning yourself how to avoid errors.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Triggerpigking - 06-12-2013
(06-06-2013, 08:23 PM)Madzia Wrote: So you're saying you never got defensive? you never tried to make excuses why you did your art in this way that someone thought is bad? You always understand every constructive critic that was provided to you even at the beginning? Like, you know at the very begging when you have vague concept of many thinks. If you can recall this happening to you did it helped you or make you depressed?Nope never been offended by a crit in fact I got depressed more when I did'nt get crits XD, though i've never had a paticuarilly nasty crit or a suger coated one as I remember, usually they'd just point out the problem to me and sometimes tell me how to fix it, I think there has been one or two times where i've misinterpreted a crit though.
I think the reason i'm so layed back with crits is because I don't paticuarily think much of my own work, theres been stuff i've been proud of sure but i've always acknowledged the problems with them, and the stuff i've been proud of were usually study's or copies of photo's anyway.
I had'nt really started drawing from my imagination that much until quite recently (major problem I know it's kicking my ass now) as well so I never got defensive about them.
(06-06-2013, 08:23 PM)Madzia Wrote: But really my question is what helps you make the fastest improvement? Was it constructive critic to your pictures or was you watching others how they're dealing with problems. I'm starting to think you learn most from others mistakes. I learned most important things from books. Because they have simple examples, your own pictures can be too complicated to understand obvious mistakes.I don't think you can really learn much form a crit unless they point out how to fix it and get better at it like say a drawing excersise or something, an example is that about half a year back someone from my old sb said my gestures were looking stiff and pointed out a video on them to draw them more fluidly and it helped alot. So really how much I learn depends on how in depth the crit is, but sometimes I think it's better to leave the crit a bit more vague so you can figure out your own way around a problem.
I have learnt a few things from other peoples problems but not much usually, I think it's one of those things that just differs between different people.
I've only really started getting better at self teaching myself recently but something that seems to be working for me at the moment is drawing something from imagination and just studying a big problem with it afterwards.I did a small imagination piece on someone with his leg up against the wall the other day and the leg looked horrible especially around the knee area, so last night I sat down got loomis, bridgman and a handful of pictures on the net of legs out and just studied them for ages, probbly a more specific way I could focus on these problems but it's working for me for the time being.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Tygerson - 06-14-2013
Critique is why I'm here. I know my stuff is off. Heck, anyone who looks says it's off, which is fine, but none of us knows how to fix it!
Oh, and for learning, it's always awesome when someone can point to a book or tutorial and say "study that, it will help." Because individual critique is good, but no one has time to write a whole dissertation about a single image. But if you can point someone to such a book or article, they can have a whole heap of stuff to study and learn.
As a sidenote, learning art is a leap of faith. You put so many hours in, trusting that if you put in the time, and have decent study material, you will (after a few thousand hours) turn out good work. I'm really, really hoping that is true.
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - Simonarpalmer - 06-18-2013
I believe it's good etiquette to simply ask the artist if he/she wishes to recieve critique or not before giving it, and I definately agree that there is never any reason to be an asshole, unless you are close to the person and they have let you know they respond well to insults haha. From what I see most of the time artists will say if they want critiques when posting their work, and it can then be assumed that they have no problem with people pointing out the errors made.
I definately think getting critique accelerates your progress, people will point out things that you otherwise wouldn't see yourself until a month later, because you were so happy that you got that foot or lightning or whatever right that you didn't see all the mistakes that were made :-) As soon as someone tells you what's wrong you snap out of the spell and become aware of the problems.
I feel it's important to once in a while get some confirmation of your progress though, and I agree that a critique should never be just a list of faults, but successful elements should be pointed out as well!
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - OtherMuzz - 06-20-2013
Hmm, I think a bunch of good info is being thrown around in here.
One thing that i think that is super important that i haven't seen mentioned in here though is the approach that the artist posting should have to self criticism.
In my experience, the problem that most beginners have is that a lot of people will post things that they have the skills and know-how to already do! Most people have a higher technical than a practical knoledge. So to receive a criticism for something you already know you should have done can be the most heart breaking. the feeling of "DAMMIT I ALREADY KNOW THAT!!!" can be pretty strong.
My advice to beginners and this is something i do. Grab a drawing you are proud of. Now grab a pad and paper, and list every little thing you could have done better, doesn't matter how big or small. I guarantee the list will be far bigger than you expect it to be.
Now go back and work through that list and fix everything on that list. If you are having trouble with fixing one thing, now you have something to ask methods for from others.
Once that list is at zero, and you posted something, you are at the limits of your knoledge about how to make that piece better and any feedback you receive should be things you don't know!
RE: Does constructive critic really works? - aks9 - 06-23-2013
There's some great insight in here
I just posted a rant about critiques over in this thread (group commenting): http://crimsondaggers.com/forum/thread-3290-post-36520.html#pid3652, I'd appreciate any thoughts on it
Imho constructive critique is super important. It certainly works, might not be necessary if you can critique yourself well. We can be friendly and helpful in our critiques.
It really boils down to what your mindset is and what your motivation for posting is, because there are lots of mind-sets we can get into. Sometimes we might want encouragement, sometimes critique..
Personally I hate getting critique for personal pieces when I present them in contexts of "hey guys look at this cool thing i made : )" and it's simply met with a judgmental eye. Art isn't only about critiquing to get better to get a job, we're supposed to be enjoying and appreciating the art we see, art's function is to enrich our lives, and so it can be disheartening or just irritating when your work is viewed through the wrong lens. i want critique when i post my art up for judgment, but sometimes we post our art to share, so i think its important to be clear what our intention is, and what the intention might be of the people who you are showing your work to.
I absolutely hate getting critical feedback from non-artists and non-artist friends, because i'm not showing them my work for them to tell me how it could be better, i'm showing it to share things i've made and that i like. Kinda as if you tell your friend a story about something that happened to you, and instead of commenting on the story and experience you shared, they critique your storytelling abilities.. huh.
But when I come to places like this, my mindset is different and I post things that I want critique on, when doing studies or technical pieces I don't put my own feelings and things into the piece in the same way and so I never feel judged when i get harsh critique, almost the opposite, wanting more of it.