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On learning through "copying" - Agilix - 05-01-2016
Hey,
I was wondering, seeing as how the last time I didn't enjoy the art of drawing anymore by doing a lot of studies, how to maximize both. So keep it fun but still study the hell out of it :)
So I reconsidered where I went wrong the last time and the thing is we all want to create awesome pieces. But by doing only head sketches for a week and then torso for a week and so on I didn't get time to do fun drawings.
Now, I like to draw comic characters, mechs / robots and alien like stuff.
What are the general thoughts about taking exisiting stuff, from comics or magazines etc, and try to recreate those scenes / models? Not just by laying the page on top or something but by building from the ground up. And then try and do it slightly different, angle-wise or even changes in the design.
Would this be a good practice or not?
RE: On learning through "copying" - John - 05-01-2016
Hi Agilix,
Quote:What are the general thoughts about taking exisiting stuff, from comics or magazines etc, and try to recreate those scenes / models? Not just by laying the page on top or something but by building from the ground up. And then try and do it slightly different, angle-wise or even changes in the design.
Instead of copying the comic book or remixing something that has already been done, I can do you one better. Replicate the art process by getting the script itself. Get to the source.
Aspiring comic book artists do this as an exercise or make a sequential art portfolio piece for out of it. What you do is, you take an existing comic book script and draw as if you've been given that script straight from the writer. As much as possible, avoid reading the actual comic book because it might influence your decision and art process.
You can find scripts all over the internet, but here's a popular source to get you started:
http://www.comicbookscriptarchive.com/archive/the-scripts/ It has notable writers in it, such as Brian K. Vaughn, Grant Morrisson, and a lot of writers who've already made it in the industry.
Good luck! Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this!
RE: On learning through "copying" - Agilix - 05-01-2016
(05-01-2016, 09:41 PM)John Wrote: Hi Agilix,
Quote:What are the general thoughts about taking exisiting stuff, from comics or magazines etc, and try to recreate those scenes / models? Not just by laying the page on top or something but by building from the ground up. And then try and do it slightly different, angle-wise or even changes in the design.
Instead of copying the comic book or remixing something that has already been done, I can do you one better. Replicate the art process by getting the script itself. Get to the source.
Aspiring comic book artists do this as an exercise or make a sequential art portfolio piece for out of it. What you do is, you take an existing comic book script and draw as if you've been given that script straight from the writer. As much as possible, avoid reading the actual comic book because it might influence your decision and art process.
You can find scripts all over the internet, but here's a popular source to get you started:
http://www.comicbookscriptarchive.com/archive/the-scripts/ It has notable writers in it, such as Brian K. Vaughn, Grant Morrisson, and a lot of writers who've already made it in the industry.
Good luck! Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this!
Well I think that is a great way to get original works and a lot of inspiration.
But what I had in mind here is that because you have the "reference" you can learn to apply the studies. And instantly get visual feedback on the work vs the reference.
Now, I do not have a lot of experience with this so my view on this could be completely wrong.
Do you know what I mean with this vs your idea?
RE: On learning through "copying" - John - 05-01-2016
Hmm.. I am against this, but, at the same time, I am not saying this approach is wrong.
The thing about copying comic book art, or copying art in general, is you're also copying, or worse, intensifying, the artist's mistakes or bad habits. There is not much creative processes to think about, not a lot of creative problems to solve.
My problem with this approach is: I, as an artist, don't want to be labeled as a copy-cat-'insert famous artist here'. And as a career choice, you don't want to be labeled as such as well. Why hire a copy-cat Jim Lee if Jim Lee can do it himself? You're setting yourself up to be a human copier machine.
... Or did I totally misinterpret how you're going to tackle it? Haha!
RE: On learning through "copying" - Agilix - 05-01-2016
It is not the pure intention of copying their art / style.
Also, it won't be one artist but multiple that I would draw of.
Because of the mix I hope / intend to develop my own style
It's hard to explain I guess as I do not have the intention to copy a 1 on 1 :)
You might see it as when students in art school learn from the traditions of the old masters :)
RE: On learning through "copying" - John - 05-01-2016
But that's the thing, they are old masters for a reason. Not quite sure art school will encourage putting comic book art on the same level as the old masters.
I don't know if that's a good way to cultivate style. Style is essentially a person's interpretation of reality. Copying a style to achieve a style is a copy from reality twice removed. If you're trying to create a believable world, wouldn't it be more reasonable to copy as close to reality?
BUT, I will say this. Jack Kirby once said he learned how to draw by copying others. When he didn't know how to draw a hand, he took some other comic artist's hand, studied it, and made it his.
RE: On learning through "copying" - Agilix - 05-01-2016
(05-01-2016, 10:26 PM)John Wrote: BUT, I will say this. Jack Kirby once said he learned how to draw by copying others. When he didn't know how to draw a hand, he took some other comic artist's hand, studied it, and made it his.
And that describes exactly what I meant :)
I do concur with the rest of your argument about going even further from reality but in Kirby's case it seemed to work.
And again, it's really about studying how they build the object and learning from that :)
Now I do not say I wouldn't study from the old masters and so, but I hope this will, in part, lighten the heaviness of studying.
Though your tip is gonna help a lot as well as it will give a certain goal to which the studies will be used on :)
RE: On learning through "copying" - John - 05-01-2016
Haha! Why do I get the feeling you're asking just so you can get a positive affirmation on what you're about to do! Oh you silly silly boy you..
I'd be a hypocrite if I say "don't ever do it". I did a lot of copying anime and comic book artists back in my day. I did pick up good techniques, habits, and for better or worse, shortcuts. But a good, painstaking understanding of the subject made me aware of the bad ones. Believe me, bad habits are hard to kill.
If I had to campaign on the side of copying: If you're practicing, I'd say I'd go for things such as: gesture drawings, cast drawings, or old master copies.
Just so we're perfectly crystal clear on this one.
Quote:Would this be a good practice or not?Not a good practice for building your basic artistic foundations!
RE: On learning through "copying" - Agilix - 05-02-2016
(05-01-2016, 11:24 PM)John Wrote: Haha! Why do I get the feeling you're asking just so you can get a positive affirmation on what you're about to do! Oh you silly silly boy you..
I'd be a hypocrite if I say "don't ever do it". I did a lot of copying anime and comic book artists back in my day. I did pick up good techniques, habits, and for better or worse, shortcuts. But a good, painstaking understanding of the subject made me aware of the bad ones. Believe me, bad habits are hard to kill.
If I had to campaign on the side of copying: If you're practicing, I'd say I'd go for things such as: gesture drawings, cast drawings, or old master copies.
Just so we're perfectly crystal clear on this one.
Quote:Would this be a good practice or not?Not a good practice for building your basic artistic foundations!
You're right, my apologies. I was being a stubborn douche and didn't realize it.
I'll stick to the fundamentals and give your idea with the briefs a go.
Thanks John
RE: On learning through "copying" - devinn - 05-02-2016
(05-01-2016, 09:22 PM)Agilix Wrote: Hey,
I was wondering, seeing as how the last time I didn't enjoy the art of drawing anymore by doing a lot of studies, how to maximize both. So keep it fun but still study the hell out of it :)
So I reconsidered where I went wrong the last time and the thing is we all want to create awesome pieces. But by doing only head sketches for a week and then torso for a week and so on I didn't get time to do fun drawings.
Now, I like to draw comic characters, mechs / robots and alien like stuff.
What are the general thoughts about taking exisiting stuff, from comics or magazines etc, and try to recreate those scenes / models? Not just by laying the page on top or something but by building from the ground up. And then try and do it slightly different, angle-wise or even changes in the design.
Would this be a good practice or not?
It's an awesome practice; as kids we did this all of the time. But unbeknownst to us, we were participating in a method of studying.
Whatever gets you to draw man. Don't worry too much about the technicalities or the process. All you reallly need is an idea of what you want to to do and the discipline to sit your ass in a chair and study for a few hours. It's the 'Stop thinking and start doing.' mantra, ya know?
Get to work, man! :P
RE: On learning through "copying" - Amit Dutta - 05-03-2016
If you want to learn how another artist did their work, their is nothing better you can do than do a study of it, and then immediately apply your learnings, but in your own unique way to your own unique piece, in other words not just trying to replicate the same shit from memory, but applying the understanding you learned during the study to something of your own.
I refuse to use the word copy here, because copy implies rote reproduction and that shouldn't ever be the aim of any study, master or otherwise. And yeah, if you want to study something whoever they are....go for it, as long as they inspire you and you know what you want to get out of it.
Sergio Toppi is one of my all time favourite artists, if not the favourite, and he was a comic book guy. Ignore the list of long dead people if that's what you want. Study who inspires you.
I also maxed out on study at some points. All work and no play makes Jack a serial axe murderer. But now I love freaking studying when I get the time. Find your own balance, nobody can tell you what the right one is for you.
RE: On learning through "copying" - John - 05-04-2016
Quote:I was being a stubborn douche and didn't realize it.Don't be silly. You were not! I know what I said was kind of harsh and borderline dickish (Now that I re-read what I said the last post). And I feel like I muscled you in! (which btw, you shouldn't!) I am a huge comic book enthusiast so anything remotely related to that topic, I discuss it with much gusto and passion!
I am super adamant about this issue because I've been through that 'copying' road and I don't want anybody to pick up the same mistakes as I did.
Making comics is an intense process. If we're talking about the big two, most artists need to finish 28 to 32 pages in less than a month. That's more or less a hundred panels. So in turn, that's at least a hundred composition options, on top of the actual drawing! Meaning most of the time, it is a rushed job. What I'm trying to get at, making comic books isn't as intricate, or isn't as well thought out as a finished illustration. Perspective's going to be a little wonky. Anatomy needs to give a little, and other what have you's. Even the top artist in the big books will have a bad panel or two.
I love me some Dragon Ball. I love Toriyama. But his Dragon Ball anatomy broke my sense of anatomy. I had to unlearn not to define every ab with a hard line! Just because that guy made abs look cool by drawing them in, doesn't mean I could make abs look cool if I did it the same way. Don't get me wrong, I still love how he does his characters. It's just that, I think it's a bad starting point for building a foundation. At least for me.
I half heartedly agree with Amit. While I believe there's always something to study from everyone, at the same time, I am not quite sure how the study process goes when it comes to comic books.
It's probably a good source of composition ideas that you could dissect it with a study? Depending on the artist, probably a good source of anatomy and perspective as well? Probably a good workbook to do 'spot the bad anatomy'? Probably you found a good Moebius sci-fi spaceship you want to dissect and dig into?
It all depends on what you're trying to achieve with the study. I don't know what your goal is, but I got the impression that you were trying to do anatomy studies because you're drawn into 'comic characters, mechs / robots and alien like stuff' and that's why I am rallying against.
But I think we can all agree on one thing. Do what you think that's right. I'm just trying to build up a good case like any good prosecutor would. In the end, you're the judge who's going to have the final say anyway! Regardless whether or not you're going to push through with your idea, I'm interested in seeing your work!
RE: On learning through "copying" - Artloader - 05-04-2016
Quote:What are the general thoughts about taking exisiting stuff, from comics or magazines etc, and try to recreate those scenes / models? Not just by laying the page on top or something but by building from the ground up. And then try and do it slightly different, angle-wise or even changes in the design.
Well I'm relatively new to the concept of art study (I've only been serious for 6 months or so) but this sounds like a good idea to me. I believe that what you're suggesting is similar to doing an old master study but selecting your favourite comicbook artist instead.
I would say though that your average comicbook artist isn't going to be as technically skilled as your average old master. As long as you understand that but are still happy to learn certain techniques from them - I would say go for it! Anything that keeps the motivation levels up is worth considering.
My approach at the moment is to select an artist who's work I like - do a study of one of their pieces and then apply that to a piece from my own imagination. This gives me a balance between study and more imaginative stuff and helps me apply what I've learned.
By the way I'm not frowning upon comicbook artists - one of my favourite artists of any genre is John Romita Jr.!
Anyway good luck with your objectives Agilix - keep going dude!