The elephant in the room: Stagnation
#1
There's something about the state of the current forums that absolutely needs to change. I'd like to preface this by saying that I'm not a professional artist yet, but I think I know just exactly what it takes and how to get there.  And I've witnessed friends and pros get there.

This isn't a personal attack. Much of what I'm saying is with love and support. I legitimately want everyone to reach the potential lives they strive for, but there's a serious problem right now that poses a risk to that.

Over the years, many of these boards have become an empty husk of what they used to be. A lot of the artists who once used these boards jumped ship long ago. They abandoned them as a lost cause. From time to time they might check up to see how the boards are doing, but when they see the exercises people are up to and coming face to face with stagnation, they dip as fast they came. And all we're left with is a sea of lost artists, practicing the same things over and over again and barely making any progress. The creepiest part about it all is no one is saying anything. It's the big elephant in the room. Well, I want to address this issue right here and now.

Something I've realized more and more as the time goes on is that a lot of boards, this one included, are filled with artists who stagnate in improvement. They might get a little bit better over the years, but for the most part, we seldom see gigantic leaps in progress that people used to make. It's sad to witness, mostly because no one wants to be at the same place. And no one is wishing for people to stay in the same place. But they do end up there. And I think it's in their mentality, diligence, and approach that all hold them back.

The fact of the matter is, people often are looking for a shortcut and a way out of 'boring studies.' They're looking for a concrete map of all the places they must visit to get to their destination. They superficially and aimlessly study materials. They want someone to hold their hand and tell them they're right (and wrong) in their approach. They second guess their every decision.They ask pros the same questions: am I too old at 15? at 16? at 18? 25? 30? What materials do you study? What pencil, pen, and sketchbook do you use? Should I do digital or traditional? What software should I use? Can I skip studies if all I want to draw is anime?

And the answer to these questions all have one commonality. They do not matter. At all. Whatsoever.  In the grand scheme of things, they are excuses to waste time. Excuses to not put in the work. Excuses to not start. The fact of the matter is, yes, you should've started yesterday. Who cares. You can start today. Right now. And yes, you can still get good. The type of medium you use is irrelevant. Just shut up, buckle down, and do the work. The hardest part is showing up. The hardest part is literally just sitting down and drawing for hours at a time. You'll need to be tough and accept frustration as something to move past. And most people don't put in enough time or energy to conquer themselves.

If you really want to get good, you need to be able to sacrifice time, money, and relationships to pursue art (unless you're actually extremely gifted). And another plain fact is most people do not make these sacrifices because it IS hard. They do not put in enough time to see the improvement they want. Period. They want to live comfortably. They don't want to sacrifice their video games and friendships. They don't want to take less hours at work. They don't want to be ridiculed by people for pursuing their dreams. 

And the worst part about this, even beyond people just not spending enough time drawing to build momentum and 'get good' is that they don't even respect the fundamentals enough. No one stresses form enough. They see fundamental exercises as something in the way of their destination. As something they need to just do once and get it over with. And they think that glossing over materials, straight up COPYING materials without second thought, and just pumping out work will get them to the results of the artists they admire. No. That's now how that works. that is a recipe for mediocrity and ruin and you can see the proof littered around all these forums. Just copying something without integrating the study is nothing. It's useless. Futile. It adds nothing of value to you. You study so you can USE the information. So don't study without application.

So, this message is specifically and only to those anyone who seriously wants to 'git gud' and break the cycle, I urge you to make the sacrifices in your schedule to make art your priority. Spend the time. Create work. Study the foundations AND do fanart. And yes, repeat all those perspective and form exercises. Draw the box and cylinder rotations. Learn what cross contours are.  Drill them into your skull until you can do them into your sleep. Then stretch them to their outer most limits to integrate them into your work. Dissect the work of people you admire. Apply foundational techniques to them to see how they think. And then assimilate the parts of their techniques you admire. 

With that said, I wish you all the best of luck on your personal journeys and I sincerely want each and every one of you to flourish.

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#2
It a touching thing to see that you took the time to sh1t on everyone bullsh1t and present the cold hard truth.That the kind of harsh ''love'' we don't see anymore everything is so cuddly in to day age that artist barely grow.I think back than i cannot talk from experience i was no where near the mental state i am in right to have experience dagger in is golden age this community was much strong because the internet was also much younger so i guess it help this place flourish and with number alway come competition but also just imagine the amount of feed back you would recieve and it was not full of bs.Anyway that my 2 cent.

I am still struggling myself to find the balance between sacrifice and my dream
There still plenty of thing i might not be ready to admit but i am cetain really glad i found this place there is still some of the gold past magic left in here and the community is small enough that you can feel you belong.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from is own error.
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#3
Aren't you just repeating the meme at this point? "just keep working, milage is everything, focus on the fundamentals, draw boxes and cylinders, don't copy!" Seems like wherever I go this is what I hear and yet wherever I go, I don't see much rapid improvement. Maybe it's worth sitting down and being a bit skeptical of the "common knowledge". Maybe it's worth re-thinking a few things, maybe getting a more nuanced perspective.

Discord - JetJaguar#8954
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#4
(07-18-2019, 06:20 AM)DESQUOLOR Wrote: There's something about the state of the current forums that absolutely needs to change. I'd like to preface this by saying that I'm not a professional artist yet, but I think I know just exactly what it takes and how to get there.  And I've witnessed friends and pros get there.

This isn't a personal attack. Much of what I'm saying is with love and support. I legitimately want everyone to reach the potential lives they strive for, but there's a serious problem right now that poses a risk to that.

Over the years, many of these boards have become an empty husk of what they used to be. A lot of the artists who once used these boards jumped ship long ago. They abandoned them as a lost cause. From time to time they might check up to see how the boards are doing, but when they see the exercises people are up to and coming face to face with stagnation, they dip as fast they came. And all we're left with is a sea of lost artists, practicing the same things over and over again and barely making any progress. The creepiest part about it all is no one is saying anything. It's the big elephant in the room. Well, I want to address this issue right here and now.

Something I've realized more and more as the time goes on is that a lot of boards, this one included, are filled with artists who stagnate in improvement. They might get a little bit better over the years, but for the most part, we seldom see gigantic leaps in progress that people used to make. It's sad to witness, mostly because no one wants to be at the same place. And no one is wishing for people to stay in the same place. But they do end up there. And I think it's in their mentality, diligence, and approach that all hold them back.

The fact of the matter is, people often are looking for a shortcut and a way out of 'boring studies.' They're looking for a concrete map of all the places they must visit to get to their destination. They superficially and aimlessly study materials. They want someone to hold their hand and tell them they're right (and wrong) in their approach. They second guess their every decision.They ask pros the same questions: am I too old at 15? at 16? at 18? 25? 30? What materials do you study? What pencil, pen, and sketchbook do you use? Should I do digital or traditional? What software should I use? Can I skip studies if all I want to draw is anime?

And the answer to these questions all have one commonality. They do not matter. At all. Whatsoever.  In the grand scheme of things, they are excuses to waste time. Excuses to not put in the work. Excuses to not start. The fact of the matter is, yes, you should've started yesterday. Who cares. You can start today. Right now. And yes, you can still get good. The type of medium you use is irrelevant. Just shut up, buckle down, and do the work. The hardest part is showing up. The hardest part is literally just sitting down and drawing for hours at a time. You'll need to be tough and accept frustration as something to move past. And most people don't put in enough time or energy to conquer themselves.

If you really want to get good, you need to be able to sacrifice time, money, and relationships to pursue art (unless you're actually extremely gifted). And another plain fact is most people do not make these sacrifices because it IS hard. They do not put in enough time to see the improvement they want. Period. They want to live comfortably. They don't want to sacrifice their video games and friendships. They don't want to take less hours at work. They don't want to be ridiculed by people for pursuing their dreams. 

And the worst part about this, even beyond people just not spending enough time drawing to build momentum and 'get good' is that they don't even respect the fundamentals enough. No one stresses form enough. They see fundamental exercises as something in the way of their destination. As something they need to just do once and get it over with. And they think that glossing over materials, straight up COPYING materials without second thought, and just pumping out work will get them to the results of the artists they admire. No. That's now how that works. that is a recipe for mediocrity and ruin and you can see the proof littered around all these forums. Just copying something without integrating the study is nothing. It's useless. Futile. It adds nothing of value to you. You study so you can USE the information. So don't study without application.

So, this message is specifically and only to those anyone who seriously wants to 'git gud' and break the cycle, I urge you to make the sacrifices in your schedule to make art your priority. Spend the time. Create work. Study the foundations AND do fanart. And yes, repeat all those perspective and form exercises. Draw the box and cylinder rotations. Learn what cross contours are.  Drill them into your skull until you can do them into your sleep. Then stretch them to their outer most limits to integrate them into your work. Dissect the work of people you admire. Apply foundational techniques to them to see how they think. And then assimilate the parts of their techniques you admire. 

With that said, I wish you all the best of luck on your personal journeys and I sincerely want each and every one of you to flourish.

Well, as someone who has been struggling for years to learn even the most basic of things I really don't know where to start.  At the moment I'm on Loomis's "Fun with a Pencil" and I'm at the end of the portrait section. I still have zero idea on how to draw or reconstruct even a quarter of what I have attempted to. I have zero idea on how to progress forward. Each of the foundation lessons I see end up having a lot of prerequisites. Where do I learn those?
Simply practicing along and attempting to apply what I know doesn't work. I end up scratching my head and thinking well I have nothing to apply. I look at other's work and I find myself unable to deconstruct anything.

Before I even posted here I attended college classes. I managed to pass each class on drawing without learning anything at all. Asking the instructors resulted in getting generic answers like "You're doing fine" "Art is subjective" "I think your work has a nice feel to it" Nobody actually critiques anything. The instructors do little more than read from a hand out; they off no advice and give no directions on what to do. My classmates didn't care either. It was an easy A for them and nothing more.
Outside of college the classes actually managed to be worse. "Critiques" consisted of telling someone what you really liked about their work. Saying anything that wasn't positive would result in being ask to leave. Instructors did not even read from a hand out, they just watched people and pointed at things then made random comments such as "good job", "nice work". They were like adult finger painting classes.

Where do you go if you really want to learn to draw? I've tried watching videos online of a few people on Youtube (Ctrl Paint, Proko, and a couple of others). While they're highly recommended, I feel like I just get frustrated watching them. None of the online courses have any real reviews, only testimonies. I'm scared to try them - some are just videos consisting of someone just drawing in front of a camera; I don't find it to be particularly useful. Some are $1000/month. While it is a really heavy price I'd be willing to pay it if I knew it would help me learn anything
Secondly a lot of them seemed geared towards people are either far advanced or who can basically learn very quickly on their own.

I'm lost and confused.
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#5
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MagneticScrolls
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Don't feel discouraged it take work to show other that your dedicated to the craft and they eventually see your effort and try to help.The more you work the more precise the feedback will get but at the begin it can be really frustrating because there so many area you can work on that if feel overwhelming.The problem with art class is that often your pit against other artist who have potential that might bury you as the teacher will not be giving everyone a fair chance to learn but favor those who seem to be able to learn by almost instinct.I recommend to find a smaller class but the problem will alway be for you to be able to know if the teacher would be able to help you or not sadly alot of teacher are not teaching strong fundamental but lean more into advance concept that can evade your understanding being able to find the right teacher and a class that will teach you what is necessary take time and to be honest investment.Remember that your much more likely to success in this day and age than back than so do not give up.

Your biggest problem at the moment is to figure out what i mean by fundamental and to do this i cannot give a simple answers.Everyone as it own force and weakness when it come to determining there strong fundamental and what fundamental they should work on.I will be able to give you more hint to as what i mean by fundamental but as you can see i am already investing alot of my time and effort and i don't want to bore you with long ass message and long message are not gonna explain everything because practice is what matter the most but more than practice is to learn to understand how to progress by being able to link fundamental together.A concept that probably much to advance right now for you.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from is own error.
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#6
(07-29-2019, 04:04 PM)MagneticScrolls Wrote: Before I even posted here I attended college classes. I managed to pass each class on drawing without learning anything at all. Asking the instructors resulted in getting generic answers like "You're doing fine" "Art is subjective" "I think your work has a nice feel to it" Nobody actually critiques anything. 
...

They were like adult finger painting classes.
...
Where do you go if you really want to learn to draw? 

These are exactly my experiences. I completed a  degree in art and honestly it was one of the most depressing things in my life. It's so absurd I want to rip my hair out sometimes. 

If you really want to learn to draw I think you ought to go to an Atelier. A fine art academy that specializes in fundamentals of drawing.  Depending on what you want to do, it might not be your style, but at least you'll learn something, right? If you don't want to commit to that, seek advice from good artists. Do workshops. A lot of fine artists are happy to point you in the right direction. I've had some tutoring over Skype for a reasonable price.

If you want to go the online route, I've tried New Masters Academy. I think it's good. But it's true that it's independent. I don't know that online classes really work well for some even if the teaching is good. I think perhaps it's hard to teach the true basics of drawing, because even though everyone was once a beginner, it's hard to imagine how it is not to be able to do something, once you are able.

However, if you really are a looking for a simple place to start, work on your accuracy. The sad thing about college classes is not that they don't teach anything, it's that they actually prevent some from learning to draw in the future. You need to train your eye to see proportion, even if you're goal is not traditional art. That's something you can build off of. It is the first step to opening paths in front of you. In colleges, they will prevent you from doing this by encouraging as much speed as possible, and total subjectivism. You cannot build off of that. Once you've got that kind of teaching in your head, you wont be able to really learn until you get it out. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan of university art programs.

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