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JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Printable Version

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RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - JyonnyNovice - 06-02-2016

Kurt & Adam Thanks for taking the time to comment guys. Heads have always been a weakness for me. With the human body I feel more comfortable and although not incredible results, when I am drawing it I feel more confident putting it together and moving stuff around when needed, or I can see the mistakes afterwards. With heads I don't feel like that, don't feel so much in control so I create a kind of formula for constructing a cartoony head and follow that. I do do regular skull studies, asaro head studies, face rhythm studies and practice, and have whole sketchbooks filled with stylised head drawings from reference and my own trying to analyse and use their simplifications, trying out different methods and approaches, boxy, spherical, cylindrical, different methods for placing the eyes and forming the sockets (which is probably my biggest weakness on these, along with expressions). These are a few pages, at points over the last few months: (I know these are not good, just a snapshot of my sketchbook) [Image: vsFYD6W.jpg] I have tens and tens of pages of these. I felt like I was really getting somewhere with my recent characters, with Yoko above and the ones the girl with the black trousers and jumper above. I felt like they had some charm and appeal to them. The head -> body connection felt good, they didn't seem warped and the eyes seemed to sit back enough into the sockets and wrap around the head. I know they are not fantastic but I felt like I was onto something, or at least could do the heads well enough to get started on my comic. Totally lost my confidence with this stuff following the recent revelations. I will go and do the portrait mentorship, it looks like it will be good for me. Feel pretty down today but will keep drawing!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Eyliana - 06-02-2016

What helped me a lot of the heads it the Reilly method:
I'm quite sure you know it, but I found it helpful to see how everything is connected together and keep things in the same orientation/perspective. Not sure how it applies to stylish heads, but maybe it can help you :)

And thanks for the gesture sheet! Lots of useful information.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Zipfelzeus - 06-02-2016

30 pages!!! Look who hasn't been a slob like me.

People here already gave enough suggestion with the heads so I think that's enough. It's just really cool to see people develop their own style even if it is still work in progress.

Let's see how it turns out. :D

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Adam Lina - 06-02-2016

Well with studying so many stylized heads I think you're more building symbolism than learning the forms. Humans are wired to have a shit ton of mental blocks with heads. We have so much evolutionary conditioning associated with how we perceive faces. I think you should focus on basic building blocks and forget about the end results like charm and appeal. Those things will come after you work out the fundamental technical issues. If you're starting to get overwhelmed (which is easy with something as complex as the human head) you're trying to figure out too many things at once. Take it one step at a time.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - OtherMuzz - 06-02-2016

Just want to pipe up and throw another thought into the ring.

Seems like you just went through your first major reality skill mismatch. Man It can be one of the most crushing things about art, when you realise that you've been spinning wheels when you think you have been making gains. I would go so far as to say that the guys that make the most progress are the ones who are able to keep this in check better than others.

It's a pretty natural thing with art, because one thing they don't tell you is that as you improve, so does your perception of the world, but what that means is that before you get past a mental barrier, seeing the issues are incredibly difficult. What you can do to counteract this is to get outside views, and have a teacher, but to do it on your own you can also do it. You need to start doing studies and exersizes that have a testing mechanism built in, so that you can check and make sure that thing you are trying to learn is correct. This might be making sure to draw with properly constructed perspective lines, or to work from a photo, and make sure you are drawing it accurately, it could be any number of things. Trying a method like rielly method won't fix the issue, because it isn't addressing what really happened.

Now you've got to this point, you just learnt something about being human, and if you can move forward with this i mind, you can go and kick some ass.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - John - 06-03-2016

Hi Jonny.

Not so sure about this. Have you tried to do a really comprehensive model sheet? Spin your character around in 3D, give it facial expressions, try to make it look consistent across all views?

Kinda like this:

I am not sure if this is the way to go.

But, I always point back to Loomis whenever I see myself in whatever art pickle I'm in. I remember this section in "Fun with Pencil".

The entire PDF is free as far as I know. Might be worth it to check it out.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - JyonnyNovice - 06-10-2016

Eyli Glad it was useful! Thanks for the link, I definitely need to practice that stuff more.

Zip Thanks for the encouragement dude! Didn't notice I'd hit 30 pages, I guess that's an achievement of sorts : )

Adam I'm not overwhelmed, just not as confident with heads. It's good advice you gave, I've been told it before and have always acted on it and gone back to study further but at some point the training wheels have gotta come off and need to move onto more designed stuff - as long as you bounce back to it every now and then I don't think there is a point where you can say you're ready / not ready to branch out.

Muzz Nah I've had those experiences before, what confused me about these recent comments is that I haven't got any decent heads in my sketchbook for a while, my heads are weak but my focus has been on inking. I assumed people knew that, I guess it's rarely good to assume, so I figured everyone was referring to my post #573, which was kind of a milestone for me and I was really happy with it (far from pro standard but for me it's a huge achievement). I looked at it over and over, in the mirror, upside down and just couldn't see where the head was going really wrong. I got some crits from other daggers on skype and they felt the heads were ok (as in structurally ok). So I feel better now and totally agree that my other heads are weak. That they are inked didn't mean I thought they were solid and finished, just inking practice.

John Thanks dude, I did a few 'fun with a pencil' drawings and they were fun to just relax and see what comes out, I'll try and do those more often. I will do a model sheet like you linked too, I was kind of planning to but seemed to have forgot along the way, so thanks for the reminder!

Decided to knuckle down and spend a bit of time with heads. I put anatomy study on hold for a while and my goals now will be mainly about expression (on top of getting good solid heads). Just some kind of warm up stuff to get me back into it first:

[Image: Pfn4iw6.jpg]
[Image: yoV3vee.jpg]
[Image: dh8iyHP.jpg]
[Image: kuMUeCS.jpg]

Next one is from about 6 months ago, its only a few centimetres big, but putting it to show that I can do a solid head from imagination when I'm in the zone. Far side eye is not good but it was really tiny, looks ok at real size.

[Image: Acbed8x.jpg]

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - OtherMuzz - 06-10-2016

Those asaro head studies are kickass man, great to see you rising to the challenge!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Artloader - 06-10-2016

Hey Jonny those are some nice and solid looking heads! Even the stylised ones are looking really 3D - the shading helps I guess.

Keep going mate.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Adam Lina - 06-10-2016

Great job taking on the crits as always man. Hopefully this draw-over helps you. The problem I noticed is the three quarter angel of the brow area. Dont forget to use horizontal lines to follow the angel of the brow/bridge of the nose across the face. That head from imagination looks decent. I have old drawings of heads that I was proud of as well. It took some hard consideration before I realized how little I still understood about the forms, though. Im still learning obviously as well. Doing those harder angels will show you where your blind spots are so keep them up!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Pax - 06-13-2016

Jyonny! What a ride it's been, huh? I come back after about four months and after seeing your progress you make me wish I never stopped! Keep up the work dude, those Asaro heads are looking good. Looking forward to the new age of your work, Jyonny!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - JyonnyNovice - 06-30-2016

muzz Thanks dude, I got pretty negative about all that head stuff but managed to turn it around and use it to fire myself up.
artloader Thanks, the shading part really does make you see mistakes to correct that you miss with just the lines.
adam thanks for the paintover
pax use that feeling and look at it the other way to think if you keep going how good you will be in 4 months from now!

Here's my entry for the crimson crucible comic challenge:

[Image: attachment.php?aid=87416]

And the WIP stuff:

[Image: attachment.php?aid=87394]

Pretty disheartened I didn't get placed, I agreed with all the crits and felt them myself but not sure where I went so wrong. Maybe I didn't create enough empathy for the character, or maybe since it relies on an emotional response from the reader it doesn't work if they don't have experience of someone dying from an OD, or a family member being an addict or being without a father or have kids or something like that - in which case I can see how it would just feel like a dark story that might leave an uncomfortable feeling. Maybe I just misunderstood the challenge and approached it in the wrong way. Either way, I think I am going to retreat from online activities for a while and just work on my own stuff, not sure if critique is helping me at the moment or just making me question and doubt myself. Doing this challenge really pushed me to see what I could produce when working at my absolute hardest (too hard really, 12 - 13 hour days on top of family stuff, a new caffeine addiction to deal with, too little sleep etc.) but I am grateful that I got to see what the top end of my ability is. I'll be back sometime (maybe soon idk) when I've finished my next comic.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Artloader - 06-30-2016

Hey there Jynonny - just want to thank you again for that Cone Of View post in my SB - pure gold mate!

Sorry to hear that you're withdrawing for a while - I thought your CC entry was excellent, I felt the depth in it. You have a strong sense of story - kind of reminiscent of Alan Moore in the feeling that it left me with. I like that it was dark but there was light at the end. Solid stuff dude.

Take some time - regroup and regenerate - eat healthily - look after your body - and I look forward to seeing you back when you're ready :). It's guys like you make this place so awesome - so I hope you don't disappear completely.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - JyonnyNovice - 07-03-2016

No probs man, and wow Alan Moore, I aspire to something like his work!

I was in a pretty low life state when I wrote my last post. Since then I chanted and prayed a lot and was read this quote at a recent meeting (it's Buddhist stuff but I think it makes sense to anyone):

"The Devil King of the Sixth Heaven attacks the forces of good with his 'ten kinds of troops'. The 'ten kinds of troops' are listed as:
1 - greed
2 - discouragement
3 - hunger and thirst
4 - craving
5 - sleepiness
6 - fear
7 - doubt and regret
8 - anger
9 - preoccupation with fame, fortune and false glory
10 - arrogance and contempt for others.
All of these are devilish functions that arise within us.
In Buddhism, 'devils' or 'devilish functions' are defined as 'robbers of life' or 'robbers of benefit'. In other words, they drain away the life-force we need to lead positive lives, and rob us of the benefit we have accumulated. The ten kinds of troops and the devil king of the sixth heaven are not actual beings. They represent the inner workings of life. In that sense, attaining Buddhahood (a 'true' and victorious state of life characterised by unlimited courage, wisdom and compassion) is essentially a struggle not against external forces but against the destructive forces or negativity that reside within our own lives."

I had a lot of those devilish functions working in me the last few weeks, although I created a lot of value at the same time. It helped to read that and understand what are illusions created by the destructive forces within and it makes me better able to fix my goals in my head and my heart.

Anyway, thanks for reading if you read all that! Just wanted to leave things on a more positive note. I'll see you again sometime in the future!

Here's a page of doodles so this post isn't all text:

[Image: 5q5LeHu.jpg]

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Piotr Jasielski - 07-03-2016

Jyonny, you did an amazing job, especially in the exploration part. I'm stunned by the fact you used 3d, it made last panel look great. I'm a bit surprised by some of Dan's picks but he was the guest judge so his opinion was valued the most (although, he wanted to give you at least a honorable mention, but we forgot about it in the end). I believe the most important thing is what you're learned by doing this challenge. Who cares about winning or not. You have a great potential for comics and animation storyboards, so just keep it up!

We will surely do another comic challenge sometime in the future and I'm looking forward to see your entry!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Amit Dutta - 07-03-2016

Yeah Jonny, I gotta pipe up here too.
We all basically picked yours out for honourable mention because of how ambitious and how well executed it was, but forgot to actually say this outloud in the stream. We did think it deserved highlighting.

What we didn't talk about was why it didn't get into the top spots. For one reason or another it didn't connect with us on a visceral level. Remember that ultimately judging is a very subjective thing, especially when it comes to comics. It is so hard to do. If we had it our way, everyone would win, but that takes out too much of the element of reward which we think is important to increasing participation in the challenge. But ultimately that isn't the point. It is about what YOU learned that matters.

I'd like to say that yours was probably the best planned, was the most ambitious, really nailed all the elements of readability, and definitely straddled the line incredibly well between the narrative and the technical. The story was poignant and smart, and dark (I love dark) and I totally relate, having family members that have addiction problems, and being on the risk scale myself.

So why didn't we pick it? I honestly couldn't tell you for certain, but I get this sense that you perhaps didn't give us enough for us to empathize with Max. It was a string of life moments seen very much from outside, and the time frame was so great between panels that perhaps the gravity of the nature of the change from one to the other didn't impact as much as it could have? Note this is just me wondering...I truly can't fault your execution, directly. By the second to last panel, I still felt a little underwhelmed by the payoff, in that I knew it was horrifying and I should have felt awful, but in reality I simply didn't. In truth it surprised me a bit that I had that reaction. Maybe that is more my issue with empathy than yours in showing the situation. Or perhaps, because the story arc itself is a very well known one to us all it didn't really surprise or show us anything new that we haven't seen many times before. The trope of "drugs and addiction are horrible" are pretty much all around us, so in order to engage us with a well trodden trope, there really has to be an original and unique twist to things with the story. You did really well with the use of cute dogs, and the really clever use of the donut device, but the story itself while executed brilliantly, was ultimately a little underwhelming for me personally. Again you tried to cover and nail all those challenges in ONE page. Talk about ambitious. There is nothing I would take away from this, than absolute pride in how much you actually nailed. The only thing you didn't nail was a meaningless spot in the "top three"
Note this is just my own subjective opinion! There will be others that are hit hard by your story, no doubt. That's the nature of the game :)

What I do know is that out of all the entries, you put in the most work and are probably the most passionate about comics, and that passion will take you far. You told a story that was deeply personal and used the medium for more than just a good laugh. If you keep that up, I predict you will be producing some great stuff in the future!

Hope to see you back sooner, once you've had some time to process!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Artloader - 07-03-2016

Yep, it's the battles within that are the most significant.  Sounds like you're well equipped to handle those battles Jyonny.  Thanks for sharing the quote - powerful stuff.  Take it easy my friend.

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - JyonnyNovice - 07-14-2016

Thanks for the comments and further feedback, it's really useful and reassuring. I agree it's not about winning but it's natural to measure the success of your entry against those who placed. It felt weird that Dan talked through the other stories panel by panel, but with mine he just focused on technical stuff, felt like my story had really bombed out. I got over all that stuff though now, and your comments really helped! so, onward to new things!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - John - 07-15-2016

Oh dude. Don't worry about bombing on a story.. It happens to everyone! Even to the people who are writing comic books commercially.

For example: Brian Michael Bendis. 5 time Eisner Awardee. Great material on books like Spider-man, Daredevil and the like. But his current run on Guardians is just horrible! Horrible I tell you!

Flash back to the 90's, he wrote a book called "Angels of Destruction". The art, for the most part, looks like part fantasy (Angels! Demons!), and part sci-fi (there were ninjas, and armor, and armor ninjas!) but the writing... the characters talked like they're from a crime noir movie!

And of course.. He also got crap on high profile books. There's his Elektra: Scorpio Key (I didn't even finish reading it), and his Daredevil: Ninja run, which he advised everyone not to go look for it!

We all have bad stories thinking it's good. And vice versa. What works for this guy, won't work for the other guy. Like Peanuts! I love the great Charles M. Schulz. But he had bad, "I-don't-get-it" strips as well.

Alls I'm saying. Super stoked to see more work from you! Bomb until you finally put out a masterpiece! That's how every single thing 'works' anyway.

And if it's any consolation. Your one pager is better than Bendis' Elektra run! Oh I better run before I turn into a bitter fan boy!

RE: JyonnyNovice - from Novice to Master! - Mariyan-Hristov - 07-19-2016

Man you have crazy improvement from the start of the thread !

As for the CC, man just look at what you posted and how hard you worked for making those series of panels, the experience you gained has a higher value to your development than the ranking system of the challenge itself. I think that's the whole point of it , working to your limit, receive some feedback, work on past mistakes, try again.

I mean seriously, look at your progress in the last 30 pages, I'm sure somewhere in between the pages you had those "Let down" periods, but you got up continue and look how far it got you.