22 May 04:02
--anyhow i need to go draw
Shout Box archive
22 May 04:02
--I think trial and error in the form of play certainly has a lot of merit, but it is the worst way to teach yourself fundementals.
22 May 04:02
--those kinds of things can come from a book, or you can come up with them yourself
22 May 04:01
--trial and error can also mean doing sculpting to figure out forms, or thinking about shadows and light instead of symbols
22 May 04:01
--Maybe he isn't developing principles, and just pushing symbols around the same way he always has. I think you're limiting your definition of trial and error to 'approaching things with the same process over and over again until you get them right'
22 May 04:00
--Truth of the matter is that i was doing the wrong thing for a very very long time... and in a lot of ways im just trying to get others to not do the same stupid things.
22 May 03:59
--I also have the same experience with drawing faces, and i took years to learn how to do it because i was too stubborn to realise that i actually didn't understand form properly, and the only way to fix that was careful observation and study.
22 May 03:58
--There is a dude who has been drawing as long as i have on another forum >10 years. He is just as bad now as when he started, and that's because he did nothing but self cannibalistic trial and error.
22 May 03:57
--You're thinking more along the lines of advanced symbol drawing, where people are able to accurately copy and place symbols in a way that looks like they understand what they're doing, without them actually understanding their meaning
22 May 03:57
--While i can see what you are saying... a decade of watching artists grow really point to that not being the case.
22 May 03:56
--Ah, yes. I guess the point we are disagreed on is more along the lines of what the requirements are for an artist developing the most high-level subconscious abilities. I'm fairly sure that simply 'doing things by the book' and constructing things with that set of rules as its basis doesn't give you a full understanding of what you are doing, while experimentation, trial and error can. Because trial and error is not just pattern recognition, but also developing your own principles.
22 May 03:55
--Well I understood what you meant, and also what I noticed when playing instruments. Although, I think for some of us, we understand better if both visual+theory is combined together.
22 May 03:54
--Your brain can learn to do a damn good job of perspective just by copying a ton of stuff. But that is nothing like understanding linear perspective.... does this all make some sort of sense?
22 May 03:53
--What i'm really trying to impart is this idea that there are two types of processes the brain can use. pattern recognition and prediction, and logical first principles.
22 May 03:51
--If you can freehand perspective, but don't know the construction, you don't have any tools to dig yourself out when you run into problems.
22 May 03:51
--lod, yes they push it onto the subconcious, You can push any logical process onto the subconcious, but it's better if you learn both the technical side and the subconcious side so you can debug when you have problems.
22 May 03:49
--Basically lets say at level 1 you can barely draw the box, but you accurately start practicing it, eventually you reach a level where you can draw a box without thinking/rotate it in your mind as well. Which leads you to make other design choices such as, how to converge the box into a different subject. Is that what you meant?
22 May 03:48
--anyways i wanna go draw, but if i've said it once i'll say it again. If you can't draw a box, why the fuck are you trying to draw a human.
22 May 03:48
--In that case, what's your explanation for people freestying complex perspective without using that logical side?
22 May 03:47
--You are talking about memorizing form, that is subconscious yes. Using construction scott robertson wise is all on the logical side
22 May 03:46
--Doesn't that fall under construction, Muzz? I think what you're trying to explain is, when you can accurately/practiced drawing a subject, you can easily get it out of the subconscious and just edit the whole design of it that fits to another thing?