Art Schools VS Self taught

[KurtJeremy]

was really thinking about this quite a lot lately. because im beginning to doubt myself that ill be able to do this "self taught" route. i heard some good stories for those people who has had success with it. but what worries me a lot is the competition aspect of this.

 how much can you compare from someone who went to an art school to someone who didn't?
should someone who wasnt able to go to one should work 2x as harder as the one who do?

i have absolutely 0% experience of going to any form of institutions of art , so i have no idea how it feels to be in one, what the atmosphere is like, how the student to teacher interaction goes, what actually is being taught even.

i have been self teaching myself for 2 years now. and from what i have gathered in those times, its actually what kept me going , is that it is possible , possible to make it in the industry be it concept art or illustration.

so my questions is for the artists that are self taught that has "made it" feel free not to answer them :

-have you been into art school prior to being completely going the self taught route?
-when did you realized that its possible to self teach yourself , and started getting serious at it ?
-how much time did it took you to get to the "commission worthy level"?
-even if you think youre anti on art schools , if you have the money where would you think its viable to invest it to improve your art (online classes , tuts, ateliers)?
-hows your social life in this self teaching period?

i may be asking for too much here so i might be getting a little overboard here. 
maybe im just so burned out lately , cos even though im putting in the work per se i dont feel im improving enough as i have expected. so if you guys have some tips as to how you have gone around it, it would really help for us artists going through this stuff entirely on our own.

thanks in advance guys.

[Zearthus]

Just going to throw my 2 cents in this matter.

1. Would I go to an art school?
I'm not too sure if atelier falls into the category of art school, but I would go to an atelier such as Watts, teachers I know that already work in the industry vs those who haven't been in the industry for a long time.

2. Self taught vs school
Is there really any difference aside from having a mentor. I mean even if you have a mentor or not, in the end, you're the one teaching yourself how to art, but you simply have one advantage which is a mentor.

3. When did I realize this was possible to teach myself?
June 2014. There is many possibilities for teaching yourself online now. Schoolism. Watts Atelier. Proko. Christ Oatley. Anthony Jones Mentor Program. Noah Bradley. Just to name a few. Art is a never ending learning journey. So why not make use of the current knowledge available over the internet, then throwing it all out of the window.

4. Social Life
Of course going to school you have an advantage of working along with other like minded individuals. But I strongly believe, forums and programs such as watts atelier online, can let you talk with another like minded individuals whom are striving for the same goal. 

And forming up weekly hangouts with other peoples and so on.

5. Commission Level
I am nowhere near such level yet. So I can't really give any brief description.

6. When did I get serious about it?
2014 June is when I got serious about drawing. Later on got a tablet on May 2015. But before 2014, I was drawing on and off.



---

I went through a lot of failures before May 2015, due of having no art direction aside from burning myself out by learning too many at once. So I decided to do some self reflect questions about the reason why I started art, and also bought 2 books which is Art & Fear / The Art Spirit. Really great books.

Is not like I have a magic formula on what I should be doing, but I at least have a better pinpoint towards what to strive for. Well that was my thoughts regarding to this question. Hope to read others insights.

[Raganautoja]

Hi. I have just recently started taking art more seriously so my opinion will be probably the opposite you need - complete beginner's - side.  Yet your mentioned doubts regarding self-teaching are the same I am thinking about these days so I might as well put my cent here too :).

I have no resources to go to famous art schools (and I am living far from US) so it will  be self - teaching journey for me. Yet, would I go to such art school as Ringling if It weren't so expensive (and I would be of the level they accept at the moment)? Absolutely.

I agree that most things can be found on internet nowadays and good artists constantly strive to improve themselves and basically continue learning alone all their lives.... Yet, for the total beginner as myself, the amount of information online has been quite overwhelming so far. Bits and pieces of good and wrong info scattered all around ... So many books, artists, opinions...
Of course, art school will not hand "the perfect way" on the silver platter but I imagine that they provide guidance on where to start and mentors to lead students at least at the very beginning. There is curriculum, critique, and such. That alone would surely save much time and trouble, wouldn't it?

I believe that self taught artists can make it to the the "commission worthy level". But it may probably take a bit longer than for actual students. That said, I might be wrong as I am just starting this... I would love to hear opinions of more experienced artists out there.

[yangdaniel027]

The truth is that it really depends on the person, and how motivated and driven they are. Someone who is extremely determined can probably will themselves to work hard and reach professional level. Art schools provide a more organized system for this through assignments, grades, etc.

Although I'm attending art school at the moment, if I could do it over again I wouldn't have gone. Instead, I would have taken life drawing, painting classes at the local community college, and do the rest self-taught. I just don't think the cost/benefits are really worth it. Mainly the costs, I mean, art schools are just damn expensive.

[Zearthus]

@Yangdaniel
Certainly, but if you look into things such as Atelier is well worth the money, since they're not expensive, and are made by peoples whom are in the industry. Of course, you also have to look good, because some are just money grabbing industry. :P

[Tristan Berndt]

Like Zearthus, I'd suggest you look into ateliers. Art Renewal Centre has a list of quality ateliers to check out.

So maybe what I've done might give you some inspiration or ideas on what to do... I did the whole self teaching thing for about a year along side some freelancing. I've improved a ton but when being realistic, if I kept working really hard, I'd maybe be able to work full-time in a year or so. That would mean getting scrappy jobs and struggling to pay rend and stuff the first few years. Not the most appealing thing in the world. I started having doubts like you.

I started then to look into ateliers and what options I had available. It became clear that studying at a good atelier is both a big investment of time and money but also has an enormus payoff if you work hard. I personally saw ateliers as the most ideal place to study. I looked at what ateliers there where and I decided that I might as well apply to the best one I could find. To my surprise I was accepted into The Florence Academy of Art, I'm starting there in September (and I couldn't be happier). I got to visit the atelier and talk to teachers and students, it's clear that it's an optimal place for learning art.

Often what you hear from professionals is "Go to an atelier if you can, otherwise self teach". This doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other, however one has a higher success rate.

- Now to answer a few of those questions. I realised that self teaching was a thing when I learned about Rapoza. I self taught throughout highschool and have now done a year of full-time self teaching. One of the most difficult things about self teaching is that you need to learn how to take it seriously. Just working hard isn't enough. You need to be structured and go "okay, this week I'm doing anatomy" and then you need to take it upon yourself of finding appropriate resources and actually learn. It sounds obvious but it's difficult to have the right approach to be efficient.

- Getting commission worthy is a tricky thing to answer. You can get crappy 20 dollar commissions early but it took me a fair amount of time before I could bring a job worth at least 300 dollars.

- I don't think I have any regrets so far. My year of full-time self teaching was valuable but going to an atelier feels like the right thing to do.

- My social life is trashed from self teaching. It's really hard have a social life when you self teach because all your free time eventually becomes "potential study time".

[KurtJeremy]

just been rereading this guys article, i felt very bad for him that he has to go through a systematize education only to get not close to what he wanted to throughout those 3 years http://www.inpursuitofart.com/blog/art-s...lf-taught/

which brings up a question, what do you do if you just dont have the access to proper art education on your location?

im sort of in that position. where the only viable option to proper art education is online. where physical interaction is non existent. so would you guys know an alternative way to find a good environment for a self taught artist? you know the one who has constant interaction (in flesh) with people with the same interests? past 2 years ive been all alone. and now i realize how it would be very crucial for rapid improvement to have someone to be with , ya know for inspiration and stuff.

im thinking of going to art school just for the possibility of forming social networks even though the quality of the school is subpar, you guys think its still worth it?

hoping to get some answers , thanks in advance you guys

[Tristan Berndt]

Have you looked into studying abroad? Most ateliers and academies take on students from all over the world. If you're really serious, moving to another country to get the education you need should be considered.

Here's a list of the "good" schools when it comes to learning how to properly draw/paint, so you can see what your options are.
https://www.artrenewal.org/pages/ateliers.php
Maybe someone else has a list when it comes to what design schools are good.

Another option is to just go outside and make friends to fill that social need.

[KurtJeremy]

Have you looked into studying abroad? Most ateliers and academies take on students from all over the world. If you're really serious, moving to another country to get the education you need should be considered.

Here's a list of the "good" schools when it comes to learning how to properly draw/paint, so you can see what your options are.
https://www.artrenewal.org/pages/ateliers.php
Maybe someone else has a list when it comes to what design schools are good.

Another option is to just go outside and make friends to fill that social need.

unfortunately i couldn't afford going abroad to study, ive actually been thinking about going across my country just to get to a "formidable" school. i guess its the next best thing. im just gonna go from that and hope for the best.

[hermit]

Is having a degree in arts actually helpful in getting an art related job?
Does art directors actually care about it?

For a long time I've been reading that all that matters is portfolio, that getting a degree is a waste of money (like here: https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-ar...8c5efd45e9 ), but lately I've been having doubts.

Doubts intensified especially after reading this article, written by an art director: http://www.gcastellano.com/arttips/2015/...art-school . Few quotes:

• I’m sure I got my first design job (at Simon & Schuster) due in large part to having RISD on my résumé. 
  
• “Minimum Requirement: a four-year college degree.” Look familiar? If you check the job boards, you’ll find counterargument number four: Full-time, career-track positions require a degree. I’ve hired quite a few full-time book designers and interns, and in every case, I’ve asked for a degree.
  
• I suspect that most illustration we see published today is good because the illustrator went to art school.
  

But author at the same time admits that:

• (...) when my designers and I hire freelance illustrators, we don’t look at your degree.
  
  

So which one is it? Is degree important or not?
Help me, I'm so confused...

[Tristan Berndt]

hermit - it basically comes down to how good you are. Nobody is going to look over an amazing portfolio, get ready to send you that email but then see that you didn't go to collage and go "oh, well... he must be a terrible artist". It just doesn't happen.

Some of the best art schools out there don't offer degrees. Angel Academy, Florence Academy, Russian Academy. None of these places offer you a degree but they are considered the top art schools for realistic drawing and painting.

You'll encounter very few situations where you'd need to cough up a degree. The only time I can imagine someone asking is during an interview for a full time position. Then the question is more like "where did you study?" and saying "self taught" is a valid answer. If someone is on the edge of weather or not to hire you and a degree is what puts them over to one side or another, maybe it's smarter to make a better portfolio so nobody has to think about it.

[Amit Dutta]

So pretty much what others have said, you can totally self teach and become successful.

To answer your questions.
I am totally self taught.
I started seriously self teaching almost 4 years ago, but I took a break of almost 8 months during that, so over 3 years consecutive time I guess.
I got commissions after 1 year, which were ok, but I just wasn't ready to be able to handle them yet (Discipline, business side etc) and I realised that unless the money is fair, I ended up resenting the jobs and so I stopped seeking them out.
I went fulltime freelance 6 months ago, after 3 years of self teaching, but the folio I used was identical to that of a year previous, so if I bothered, I probably could have started fulltime after 2.5 years of self teaching.
Oh also I was working a fulltime day job most of that time, and went down to a 4 day week in the last year. So I was probably only able to put in 0-4 hours each day.


I and many many others out there are proof that it can be done. The main factor is dedication and persistance, and the abillty to be resourceful and flexible. If you can't hunt down your own answers and require to be told how to do something, self teaching is not for you.

The self teaching way isn't always clear, but I can say that it gets clearer and clearer the more you do it. The large bonus is, you don't end up in any debt. The downside is, isolation and you might not have a clear sense of doing the "right" things for a while. Ateliers are a good alternative to the typical university degree option, the growing number of online mentorships etc, are a cost effective way of getting some direction when you need. In terms of the social side, well like anything, nobody is going to force a social life onto you. The onus will be on you to live your life, and pay attention to the areas where you need to work on, social life, getting out there and experiencing other things, developing other interests and so on.

One thing I have noticedd as what might be a difference between self taught and school taught artists, is that the self teachers seem to be naturally more curious, resourceful and have a broader range of skills because of the nature of having to hunt down your own resources, and go down dead ends and so on. Not saying they are better artists, it just seems to be a thing. The number of times I have sent online resources that I thought everybody knew about, to artists who only went to art school, and realised they had no clue it was there, is pretty high.

Actually we are all self taught, whether we go to art school or not. Structured courses are good because they have a progression you can follow with confidence (must be a good school/ateliers!). but if you aren't doing your own study as well, you won't get the most out of them. Also what happens when you are done with your degree/school? If you are not already in the habit of self teaching, you can end up feeling a bit lost for a while.

I found this interactive on college graduate art stats. The data is from a couple of years ago, but you can have a look. Not to convince you of anything, just for interest.
http://snaap.indiana.edu/snaapshot/


One thing I will say which is the closest thing to an absolute you will hear from me: You don't need a degree at all. Anyone who says you do for art is a complete utter total ignoramous about art.

[Punk-A-Cat]

I'm still on the learning journey, so I don't really have any answers, but I want to relate to that feeling of not getting anywhere fast enough.
I think you get to a level and plateau for awhile not because you're not improving, but because you are solidifying and expanding more sideways than upwards - I don't know how else to explain it, but I feel like I've been nose to the grindstone for 9 solid months, and can't really see much improvement, but drawing in general is easier.

The more I listen to other artists talk, the more I realise that they always have drawings which they feel they could have done better, so I don't know quite how you manage to judge your own work as commission ready or not, apart from other people being willing to pay for it.

I 100% have days where I feel like art school would be so much easier, just do the work, and any extra self study would be directed by what the school work at the time was, or just by interesting stuff that you feel like hunting down. I find the self learning to be such a huge ocean full of things that I often get paralysed and just spend the whole day doing timed drawings because I can't get my head around what else I should be doing. I have a terrible time making decisions as it is, and the fear of going down the wrong path and wasting time on the wrong thing, plus the overwhelming number of choices means I will just flounder.

[VoodooMama]

From personal experience, you don't need a degree. It's all about the stuff you do.

My first job in the entertainment industry was as freelance illustrator, and I've never been to school for illustration. To be honest I didn't apply for the job, one of the art directors saw my work online and asked me if I was available for freelance work. They never asked me if I had experience working before or if I had an art school degree.

[VoodooMama]

I 100% have days where I feel like art school would be so much easier, just do the work, and any extra self study would be directed by what the school work at the time was, or just by interesting stuff that you feel like hunting down. I find the self learning to be such a huge ocean full of things that I often get paralysed and just spend the whole day doing timed drawings because I can't get my head around what else I should be doing. I have a terrible time making decisions as it is, and the fear of going down the wrong path and wasting time on the wrong thing, plus the overwhelming number of choices means I will just flounder.

If you can afford it and you feel it would help I don't see why not go to art school. At worst you'll find out it's not for you and drop it :/

Though I have never gone to illustration school I did go to it for VFX. in my experience for VFX it was very helpful that the teachers were already in the industry, they knew what they were talking about. The value lies on the connections you make with the students and teachers as well.
Also the students who were successful were the ones that went extra. Not just do the assignments but go beyond them to learn skills for your reel. I think this applies to those that went to normal art school too.

In the end though, people get hired for the skills they showcase in their reels/portfolio.
Even when it comes to networking too!, nobody wants to recommend somebody who can't do the job, since it would reflect bad on them.

[ReisnoRewasNevera]

Well, about art schools. 

As a teen I was fairly active with creating art in highschool and had high grades, 3.88/4.0 and winning even some art competitions. I was manically overachieving in short. All of this was a desperate effort to earn my way out of trailer-park poverty back in Michigan, to surpass my limitations/circumstances and all. I didn't know how college worked so I went to community college to study art for 2 more years and learned how financial aid worked. With my mania and magical autistic powers combined, I figured out how to use financial aid and writing to make it to UofM Ann Arbor to study art and Japanese. All the while I researched and visited several art programs across Michigan, saw the work they produced in their halls, as well as chatted with people who went to those schools and others who taught there too.

To be honest, I created the best work during my 2 years in community college. Private art schools in America, and universities in general, are incredibly expensive and what you get from those schools in terms of illustration and base art skills, in my opinion, is not worth the $30,000 plus a year when there are these resources online for mentorship and instruction. In a physical studio one you don't necessarily have that much access to your instructors. Yes they are relatively small classrooms (15-20 people max) and yes many of them (not all) are passionate to teach you, but there are far more limits to their time and yours that no one tells you before you pony up the tuition and fees. 

Many art teachers that I've come across actually teach at other schools just to make ends meet, less and less of them are full-time faculty. I remember trying to talk to a number of them after class and they couldn't because they had to rush to their car to drive to another college to teach another class. Yes they have office hours, but there are always other people trying to get to that teacher during them, plus those hours are not in a studio, they are in an office. You at best can talk about criteria of the assignment but it is not like you can get the paint overs from them like you could get online. They also have email contact information, provided on the syllabus, but again, their time is limited and they don't have the time to really discuss too much about your work. Many of the part-time teachers could easily be juggling 2-3 plus classes at one college and who knows how many more at other universities and even community colleges. The full-time teachers have the better credentials/achievements, but also better perks, like only offering one class that everyone is in a rush to sign up for. If you are a freshman or sophomore, you can't sign up for those classes as early as a 3rd or 4th year student, at least at the schools I went to. Those awesome classes are not even available to you in the first 2 years out of 4 for several reasons. 

No matter public or private, colleges that offer degrees have to have general education credit requirements. You will be spending money on classes that do little or nothing for you in terms of improving your craft. Community colleges have slightly less bureaucratic mess, but going to any college to improve your art will have tedious and expensive hoops of fire you will have to jump through like a sad circus tiger.     

I could write more about this, anyone feel free to ask me more about art schools, or anything really.

[Goggs]

nice discussion.

I'll just add, if you do self teaching make sure you learn about "Art history" not only techniques of painting.

[iJeffrey]

I think art school doesnt have to be useless per se the problem is does it justify 50.000? to me the awnser is no. The thing I always asked myself. Wil I be 50.000x better after 4 years of art school?

A beginner will get better by just drawing but at some stage in this learning path this will slow down. A structured way with the right guidance weather it be art school or an atelier will help tremendous in decreasing the amount of time trying to re-invent the wheel in your own as a side benefid you get the whole atmosphere as well, Live and breathe art, be around like minded peopel, not being the best in class like you were in high school we are competitive by nature this gives us a big push forward in the motivational field.

If I could choose withoud money being an issue I would go to an art school/atelier. Maybe even two because money wouldnt matter. Since this isnt real life and mortgage have to be paid Im self thought, trying to put in as much hours as a can knowing it will take me longer to reach my goals but its not the goal what makes it fun it the road which leads to that goal.

[ReisnoRewasNevera]

Art does not necessarily mean you will meet like minded people, or even similar minded people.
Sure you meet creative people, with a variety of art skills and talents, but even if you are in a private art school and talking with people in the same major as you, it is entirely possible that you can't relate to any of them. Though it is also possible that you will get along quite well too, but here are a number of ways you can end up alienated at art school:

If you are a transfer student-People group up with buddies and such within the 1st year, coming into an art program as a sophomore bypasses this meet and greet. Plus transfer students have entirely different orientations than incoming freshmen from highschool, they are often segregated in a way from the start. There might be some, one or two peeps, that don't care either way, but many are more like ,"And...who are you? Ah, you transferred in, that makes sense." then they proceed to have an awkwardly forced conversation with you while waiting for their besties for lunch. More than likely you won't be invited along.

Socio-economic status-People often want to ignore this, that we as a species are above it, well, we are not. In fact this heavily plays into a number of areas of socializing, especially at an expensive school (like any art college). This factors in less at a community college art program because everyone there has a mutual understanding of the limitations of money (or lack of). You will meet students young and old from many different walks of life at a community college, all unified at least in one way: "You're broke? Me too, let's hang and do art sometime? Great! Sorry to ask but do you have gas money? I get paid next week..." In any university, no matter public or private, you will run into a LOT of students there because their parents paid for it. They often times never seen the FAFSA form and have next to no concept of just how scarce money is. This in itself leads to communication issues if you happen to not be a student with either affluent or at least money savvy parents. Now more than ever students are taking out loans but even in college, how financially well off your parents are absolutely impacts much of your experience in college. Again this matters less in community college.

Even art style-In an BA or BFA program, you've got a mixture of talents and progress (even within the same major), and some people have a firm idea of who they are as an artist, many actually don't. I would wager most don't. It is actually somewhat difficult to really get good feedback from these more indecisive students. People there are more focused on their own work, and you might only get 15 minutes at best of critique from the art teacher, the rest comes from your peers/classmates. Often times they won't have very helpful feedback to provide you during class critique, they are just trying to come up with something to get their participation points. It is romantic to think of this class full of determined, young artists all getting down and gritty into the air and passion of art to help one another become better creators. Unfortunately though, artschool is more like the movie, Art School Confidential, except without the murder and angst and more of the vagueness that makes you want to get your money's worth by slapping the piss out of everyone in there.

The internet honestly replaces the two main selling points of art school, you can more readily find your community in forums for free and if you all really determined you can meet and greet on skype, and in terms of professional skills you can be taught by the professionals themselves on patreon, udemy, coursera, various pages to name a few. For art that needs a studio, like weaving/metal work/large scale etc, you are better off finding a career in something on the side and finding a community that does this in their own time, not so much a university, or go to a community college with a decent art program (the 80/20 option at a fraction of the cost).

The university student community at the BA level is not worth it. Not even for the lowest price you can get it, unless you get a lot of scholarships and they essentially pay you to go to their school. That is the only time it is worth it, and frankly the only reason I went to university in the first place.

[Amit Dutta]

blah blah. Come on guys, this is so dull. There is only one way to go...the way YOU decide to go. All else is generalised verbal wank. Everyone makes their decisions, everyone's experience is their own. It makes no difference what others  think is right, if it ends up making no sense to you.

Sorry if this comes across as dismissive of points of view, I don't mean it to be, and I'm sure they are all valuable but the crux of this is so simply summed up:

Do what you feel is right for you. Period. You'll figure it out.