First gig

[Patrick Gaumond]

Look, I don't even completely understand what your point is here. At no point did I say that you shouldn't work on non-commercial projects if you want to. Of course you can, if you can find the time. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if a client is upfront about not paying you, if the project is commercial that means that the client wants to earn money and wants to exploit you. So all their being honest about is their exploitation.

I wasn't implying that anyone on here is doing the brainwashing, but there is quite a bit of that going on "out there", believe me. I get e-mails every week asking for spec work or praising the huge "exposure" i will get if I do project X for them.
If you have to make ends meet, 2 weeks of fulltime work is a huge amount to spend doing work for someone else without getting paid. The monetary damages are (depending on your specific hourly rate) in the thousands of dollars. This is a big deal. Not even including royalties or licensing payments that those kinds of clients also won't pay you.

As I said above, in very, very specific situations working for free (internship) can be beneficial, mostly if you're not sure if this particular line of work "is for you". However, I'm doubtful how often those criteria are really met in real life. I suspect that a lot of internship placements and virtually all unpaid work done on commercial projects happen in exploitative circumstances in which the artist is taken advantage of.

I think my other main point is this: If you can't get paid work, why is that? Usually it's because you're not producing the quality clients are looking for. That means you have to improve the quality. The kind of work that is dished out as spec work/ unpaid work to beginners (because pros won't touch that stuff in any case) doesn't really help with that because it doesn't let you focus on your weaknesses. You have to focus on what your freeloader-client wants you to focus on. Which is why it is a bad idea to do work like that for beginners as well.

The group in question was fairly clear in saying it was as much a feeler for them as it would be for anyone they contacted. I said it before, they weren't expecting to go commercial or make any substantial money off of it, in other words nobody was making anything off of it and they were clear from the outset that that was the case. Obviously if someone approaches you with a commercial product in mind and says they won't pay you then you should negotiate or walk.

No doubt. I have no trouble believing you. I've heard it pretty much from any artist that's ever talked about their job experiences, so there's no real debating that. As I said before, I'm not in a situation where money is an issue currently, so I'm probably biased in that sense. But the crux of my initial post basically revolved around that fact to begin with. It should really go without saying that if you have to pay the bills and feed yourself, then free work, even if its a good experience, is probably not a good idea except in special circumstances where it could really boost you up in some ways. That does happen, but I think you're right in saying that most cases aren't that.

And lastly, I'm pretty terrible at gauging the quality of my own work. I'm not known enough to be approached for work, and I don't know who I should approach to look for work. I know the only way around that is to just send out my folio to some studios and see what happens but it's been more difficult than I thought it would be. Marketing is my shortcoming. All the studios I know of are very obviously much higher in quality than what I produce at the moment, and the lower-mid tier ones are surprisingly difficult to find. I took up a subscription on artpact so I have a bigger pool to draw from than ever before but I'm still not sure

If it's not too much trouble, where did you look/send work to when you were starting out or when you were where I'm at now?

[ReneAigner]

The group in question was fairly clear in saying it was as much a feeler for them as it would be for anyone they contacted. I said it before, they weren't expecting to go commercial or make any substantial money off of it, in other words nobody was making anything off of it and they were clear from the outset that that was the case. Obviously if someone approaches you with a commercial product in mind and says they won't pay you then you should negotiate or walk.

Well, where do you draw the line between commercial and non-commercial though in cases like that? Obviously a game is a product, wouldn't you agree? If I were approached by a group of people who style themselves "studio" and are producing a product that has potential commercial value, but who also claim that the project is strictly non-commercial, I would be doubtful at the very least (an exception would for instance be mods for an existing game where because of legal reasons it's clear that no profit can be made from the mod/game). What are you going to do if the game does become a commercial asset eventually and you've got no contract, no licensing or royalty agreements? In cases like that, although I would still advise not to do work like that at all in any case, at least get a contract beforehand that clearly states that if and when the "studio" earns money with the product, you'll get your fair share. Don't trust people you don't know.

If it's not too much trouble, where did you look/send work to when you were starting out or when you were where I'm at now?

I'm probably the wrong person to give advice on this topic since I don't work fulltime and haven't tried to yet (still at uni...). Personally, I have never sent out a resumé or portfolio to anyone. I've always, so far, been approached by clients. So what I can tell you for sure is that it's not the big ones that approach artists (usually, it does happen occasionally of course). Those clients usually have enough applicants that send in excellent portfolios, they don't have to invest manpower into headhunting.

What I'd dish out as general advice is this:
- don't focus on getting work. Focus on getting better. The market is pretty saturated in all echelons, but the truly vast masses are mediocre and borderline-competent artists competing for the lower paying jobs. While there are still plenty of competent and even really good artists, the competition isn't quite as mindlessly fierce as it is in the lower segments (with people working for stupidly low rates or even for free for the sake of "experience").
- put your work out there (FB, dA, forums etc. etc.) If you get good enough, you'll know because you'll get work. Word gets around.
- if you're going to send out portfolios, keep the e-mails short and concise. Attach one image representative of your work and a link to your portfolio. Tailor your portfolio to the company you're sending it to (no fantasy stuff for a company that produces scifi games etc.)
- look at the general quality on artstation. Not necessarily the picks, just the overall mean quality of most of the work. If you're in that general ballpark, you can get work. Very hard to judge, I know, but it's the best estimate I can give you for what it takes to get paid work.

[Patrick Gaumond]

Thanks man, its much appreciated. Very sound advice. I always seem to hear the advice that you should "climb up the ladder" of art and try to start from the lower companies as you work your way up. Maybe that's not necessarily the best way to do it

And yea, when you put it that way it is pretty hard to draw the line between commercial and non-commercial, especially without a contract. I hadn't really considered it from that view point to be honest

Thanks again