Zizka's Sketchbook
#21
There you go buddy.

Manikin Basics- to think about for Sketching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr0_mTA0rwY

Manikin Basics- to think about for Sketching part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roz-iQ-5Pl4

Just remember that we live in a world that is base on 3 point perspective which might be something you need to pratice if you been doing only doing 1 or 2 point perspective so far.Also the challenge is to learn to estimate the vanishing point this can be done much easier when there is man made boxy object within a scene because a box is a great tool when trying to find the perspective when you have organic object you have to create box around it which can prove to be uneasy for some people it easy to simplify a subject in term of shape but when it come to 3d volume you have to have your vanish line converge at the right rate or it will look wrong.So you gotta practice first finding the horizon line that shouldn't be the hardest part it probably going to be able to find the vanishing point specially if they are outside of your scene anyways i hope i help if not maybe he can explain it better than me.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
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#22
Thanks for the links, will look later, probably tomorrow.

As for the rest, what I get away from your message is:
-practice drawing in 3D
-Use a box to frame character
-First find horizon line

So, as mentioned, the problem is that even if I use basic shapes to draw something, I'm challenged to make things in 3D:

[Image: l0d9v8H.png]
For #6 and #7, I don't know how to make the feet or ears 3D.

When I try to use 3D shapes to make the arms look the right shape, I'm then stumped by figuring out the shapes of the cylinders in that context.

Should I just practice basic shapes in 3D repeatedly with vanishing points? Would that be a good investment of my time?
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#23
I recommend you draw over picture and other people work asking yourself which perspective was use for each of them it take time to understand which perspective is at play so practice is important.But the basic of perspective is cube and being able to rotate it.

From what i am seeing is your still using a 1 point perspective mindset you have to understand like i said that you need to move toward a 3 point perspective in the specific case since it was a photo which are using 3 point perspective.If you study other people work(drawing or painting) you could be either working in 1,2,3 point perspective and i am not even mentioning other type of perspective that are less common but still exist.If you want your subject to look 3d you will need to identify which perspective it at play before you draw.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
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#24
I'm starting to experiment drawing cylinders in 3D, experimenting with different axis. I'm doing the challenge mentioned:
https://drawabox.com/lesson/250cylinders
which unfortunately doesn't seem to credit the exercise which is soured from Scott Robertson's book on page 19.

Either way, I'm starting to get used to rotating my page which I seldom or never did before. I'm also starting to get used to drawing straight lines and slowly drawing ellipses.

Drawing ellipses which are both perpendicular and symmetrical regarding to the x axis is pretty hard, especially when I'm not rotating.

[Image: IsLrYCJ.png]
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I haven't drawn the 3D box around the cylinder yet but that's what I'll try next.
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#25
This is not how you get the most out of this you need to vary the size of those ellipse way more than you did.Small ellipse are not as hard to draw as larger one.Also you drew them in pretty much the same orientaion is space.You also need to vary the degre of your ellipse.I still give you credit for drawing alot of cylinder but the way you go about practicing can be improve.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
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#26
Ah I see! Next time then.

[Image: q6MMlts.png]

Now switching to trying to practice what is in Preston Blair's book:
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#27
I believe the issue you are having is that you aren't really constructing forms in your mind, but flat shapes. Even when drawing the ellipses for the spheres pr cylinders to indicate that it's 3d, that's still just a flat symbolic shape that you've memorized how to draw. It's difficult because you do need to see the shapes and draw them, after all your drawing is 2D. But you at the same time need to understand in your mind how that shape is actually indicating a form in space.

This is where I would move away from stuff like the Blair book or othet how to draw things. They are misleading because they construct with flat shapes and end up with forms. This is all for show and entertainment, not great for actually learning how to do it yourself imo.

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#28
Ok I see your point. What do you think I should do then?
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#29
Well, basically how you are already doing things, except instead of deconstructing into shapes, deconstruct into forms. Draw through it's shape imagining your line going around it, and draw it as if it's made of glass and you can see through to the other side.

I kind of think of things not as they are, but as a little figurine or statuette. Idk, it helps me imagine how the forms fit together for some reason.

But my point is just that in your head you must think you're drawing forms, not flat shapes. I would also suggest not to cartoon or stylize your studies, I don't think that will help much.

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#30
The following are statement are sometime true when you try to translate from 2d to 3d.


Triangle=Pyramid
Square=Cube
Cercle=Sphere,Cone,Cylinder
Rectangle=3d box

Complexe shape =3d box + mix of ,cone,cube,sphere


those are the generally way to start to transfer 2d thinking toward 3d thinking.So don't feel bad if you unsure which 3d form is the best try something  and if it doesn't seem right try again with a new 3d object.Your biggest problem right now is you don't necessarly seem to have the understanding of what is a plane in perspective.If you want to draw 3d object you need to start to be also able to see the other side hidden from the viewer this mean that you need to develop an approch that is refer to as drawing through.Let say a cube for example it as 6 plane this where drawing cube in perspective get the ball rolling in developping this understanding later on there will be mirroring technique that added to create more complex object than simple geometric.

Here i provided an example of a complex form with what is refer to as the draw throught technique.Ignore the explication form the example provide in the picture below they to advance for the moment they would simply add up to the possible confusion.

For the point about study stylize work vs none stylize work what is the important thing in my opinion is that you take subject matter that you are comfortable drawing don't take anything to complex to start because it can get really busy really quick using this technique limit your subject to one subject to begin with and move toward putting many object in the same scene.If you study from stylize work i recommend you avoid amateur work a good place to look is disney work because of there strong and simple form.



Attached Files Image(s)



My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
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#31
Quote:Idk, it helps me imagine how the forms fit together for some reason.

Well to some extent. I meant to ask: what kind of exercises to you suggest to do to achieve that goal. In other words, what do you do precisely. I understand the goal to reach but not the way to reach that goal if that makes sense.
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#32
So as it stands, I'm practicing reproducing 3D shapes from references:
[Image: xPMH2eF.png]
[Image: RnU8rRQ.png]
[Image: HM7vou8.png]

[Image: nABIGso.png]
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My linework is better as in I can control drawing lines without shaking as much and I use my elbow and shoulder more.

Eyeballing it is ok, it'd say I get the proportions about 50% of the time.
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#33
Your still not drawing throught your bottom half of the cylinder which would help you get better at drawing ellipse and get better ellipse because you draw the full motion.

Also your still not drawing object that do use either 1,2,3 point perspective i don't know if your aware of that but your using a 3d perspective this mean that each of your set of line that should vanish toward a vanish point are instead parrallel instead of converging toward there respective vanishing point i hope i didn't lose you there.All i am trying to say is there nothing wrong to this but if your not aware this perspective is rarely ever use and i highly suggest that you know the difference and why you would prefer to choose to use 1 2 or 3 point perspective or any other perspective to suit your desire.

Right now it actually good because it simplifying your challenge no need worry about perspective all you have to do is keep the proportion and each set of line parallel to each other.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
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#34
Hmm... I'd say I use different perspective points personally.

More practice, reproducing 1:1:
[Image: gmoqmQq.png]
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#35
I don't want to start a low value debate on perspective vs orthographic projection since it doesn't really help you much towards the goal of learning to actually draw objects with volume, but Darktiste is technically correct. The 3d cubes you are using as ref to draw in that exercise seem to be using an orthographic projection camera, where parallel lines never converge to a vp in the distance. All the 3 axes don't converge to a vp. You can check this by measuring the sides of the cube; all the parallel lines should be equal to each other in length if it is an isometric projection of a true cube. Eyeballing, this appears to be the case.
In an actual perspective based drawing at least one of the axes goes towards a converging vanishing point: 1 axis in 1 point perspective; 2 axes in 2 point perspective, all 3 axes converge in 3pt.

There is nothing particularly wrong with trying to draw isometric cubes for a little bit of practice especially if you need to regularly design things in isometric for your game work, but you should probably be aware of the difference.

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#36
Hey ! Actually I gave Zizka those exercises and even the reference for the shapes are done by me in Blender.

So my whole logic is that, if you are just starting out with drawing forms and you can't draw parallel lines there is no point drawing the more advanced version which is a form distorted in perspective.

My point is : first try to understand how forms rotate with Isometric perspective , when you get comfortable with that, add the next step which is stronger perspective and making them more distorted.

I've seen many people starting with cubes in perspective right away andd everything looks like a preparatory drawings for a cubist painting ( Which I love as a style , but I'm pretty damn sure that wasn't the original intention hah)

I feel like after getting comfortable with isometric , you learn to draw in perspective 10 times faster and its waay easier to handle.

My posts :>  ->

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#37
@Who:
Ah, I understand better what you mean now. You and darkiste are actually right, I stand corrected.

Yes, Mariyan is my secret mentor :). We meet weekly and he gives me assignment to complete for the week.

More practice:
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#38
That nice do some more but when you feel ready you should try to find the form without those simple and easy to copy example.The issue right now is your not practicing visualization but still in copying mode the heavy lifting is done for you here it like copying the teacher answers but you eventually need to start to need to do proper visualize exercise instead of those watered down exercise which isn't really the goal visualizing is harder than copying it almost seem like a super power at first for beginner.But i am sure there reason to do those such a practicing proportion and visual measuring technique.


Here my suggestion if you want to and if Mariyan-Hristov is really your secret mentor he will be able to termine if it a good idea and acess if your ready to try it.But it might prove to be to much for you right now but it still a nice exercise to try to solve everyday until you gather enough understanding try to draw a 3 cube inside a scene that overlap but are still really close together.What the intention of the exercise?To show case you understand space and what space each object occupy.That why the overlapping aspect is really important it mean that you still understand what is seen and not seen from an object when object overlap in space.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
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#39
(03-23-2021, 07:36 AM)darktiste Wrote: Here my suggestion if you want to and if Mariyan-Hristov is really your secret mentor he will be able to termine if it a good idea and acess if your ready to try it.But it might prove to be to much for you right now but it still a nice exercise to try to solve everyday until you gather enough understanding try to draw a 3 cube inside a scene that overlap but are still really close together.What the intention of the exercise?To show case you understand space and what space each object occupy.That why the overlapping aspect is really important it mean that you still understand what is seen and not seen from an object when object overlap in space.

Not a bad idea! But do you mean for the cubes to intersect? Or just be in front of each other without touching? Why not first demonstrate what you mean yourself, as an example?

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#40
Quote:That nice do some more but when you feel ready you should try to find the form without those simple and easy to copy example.The issue right now is your not practicing visualization but still in copying mode the heavy lifting is done for you here it like copying the teacher answers but you eventually need to start to need to do proper visualize exercise instead of those watered down exercise which isn't really the goal visualizing is harder than copying it almost seem like a super power at first for beginner.But i am sure there reason to do those such a practicing proportion and visual measuring technique.

I also thought about that and you are right that I'm now just essentially copying and I therefore dependent on a source picture as opposed to being build something from the ground up.

On the other hand, I want to follow Maryam's assignments as to not scatter all over the place. I'll see what he thinks about it. I look forward to practicing drawing with the three axis but I'm learning so I'd rather follow more experienced artists.

Also I agree that if you could draw the exercise it would illustrate your idea better than words could.
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