First gig

[Patrick Gaumond]

So I know this discussion has been had many times before, and usually the answer is a resounding "no" with almost no exceptions, but I wanted some input regardless.

I was contacted yesterday by an individual on deviantart about collaborating on a small indie game, providing concepts for environments and working with them to help flesh out their game. This is the first time anyone has ever approached me to do work on anything at all, so the prospect of having some work experience is really exciting. The catch however is that its unpaid, as they are doing this on their own time as well and out of their own pocket(its their first game and they're just starting university it would seem)

The only other job I've had that involved producing art I got through my brother and was for an indie animated film, which involved colouring the line art for characters and a few environments. I got paid but it didn't really push my abilities at all, and though I got some work experience it wasn't necessarily because i was good at making art at the time, but because I had basic knowledge of photoshop, colouring and my brother needed some work taken off his shoulders.

The way I see it, yes its unpaid, but I don't think i have enough portfolio work or fundamental knowledge to market elsewhere for a paid gig.

In other words, if I decline:

• I make no money in the meantime.
  

If I accept:

• still make no money;
  
• I get more portfolio pieces;
  
• I get a good rep with a startup indie company;
  
• I get credited for my work'
  
• I get to work on a game, which is my dream career at the moment
  
• and I potentially open up a door for a paid gig in the future if their game takes off;
  

I suppose I could always work out some sort of deal for royalties if their game does well at all, right?

Also, I'm not in a position where money is an issue, thankfully.

So what do you guys think? Any of you have experience with such a situation? I really appreciate any advice or tips you can share to help out. I'm leaning towards accepting it, for the reasons outlined above, but I'm open to outside perspectives as always. And again, I know the rule of thumb seems to be no for this kind of work, but I'm not getting anything else at the moment and I don't have much of a portfolio to show off elsewhere.

-Beardley

[Psychotime]

What guarantee do you have that the game or the company even get off the ground, and that they will actually pursue it to the end? The vast majority do not, and it even worse when you say it's a person just starting university. That makes quitting even more likely.

If you need a portfolio, just do portfolio stuff for yourself on your own time. Stuff you actually care about (which you'll put your best effort into) as opposed to something for someone else under their specifications.

I wouldn't bother doing anything like this for a stranger. If it were someone you personally knew, then fine. Otherwise, I'd stay away.

[Patrick Gaumond]

Thanks for the replies guys,

@Psychotime There is no guarantee, which is why I wrote "if" the game took off. And I think I will let the person know that I want to retain the rights to the images the whole way through. That way if they bail I still have work to show afterwards, and if they say no to that request then I decline. Personally I don't mind doing work for other people. Sometimes I actually prefer it, if they aren't totally bonkers with their artistic tastes, since I often struggle with coming up with ideas on my own, and the one job I've had so far I actually put more consistent effort into it since it was for a real client and not just some ephemeral self-dictated deadline.

Out of curiosity do you have experience with this sort of situation, or are you basing this opinion off other's experiences? Just wondering, because I've heard that advice given a lot, but I wonder if its actually from personal experience most of the time or some kind of hearsay spreading. I've done that myself to some friends of mine, but faced with this situation for the first time personally I have a bit of a different outlook.

If it was just some random dude saying hey make me concept art but oh ya no money for you then I'd definitely say no, but they do seem somewhat serious and seem to know what they're doing. I guess if it ends up sucking, I could drop it as Hypnagogic said. And also my art's not that great to begin with, so if they skip and steal some work or whatever there's really not much lost at all

Anyways I'm glad you're bringing up this opposing point of view. Definitely going to have to ask them some questions before committing to anything

[Psychotime]

That's an awesome reply. You've clearly got a sober viewpoint about this whole thing, so I think that if you decide to do it, you already know what you're getting into, so there's not much to worry about.

Onto the personal experience thing, I've made it a personal rule to never do work for free unless it's for people I actually know or respect.

I've been trained to avoid any kind of work for free situation like the plague, so when you get down to it, I AM only parroting what I've heard from more experienced artists who have made the mistakes already.

[Patrick Gaumond]

Thanks man. I think I'll just message the person and see what happens. If it goes south then I guess I'll just revert to declining free gigs unless I know them personally loool

[ReneAigner]

Never work for free. You're much better off doing personal studies, improving on your weaknesses, than painting someone else's ideas for free.

[*] I get more portfolio pieces;

Unlikely since you will have to deal with all sorts of issues that come with work that someone esle gives you; it's not your personal vision, you don't like certain aspects that they made you put into the piece, you didn't have enough time to do you best... etc.

[*] I get a good rep with a startup indie company;

Nobody really gives a crap, unless you're saying you get a good rep with that particular startup, in that case they do give a crap, but only because you're someone they managed to hire for free.
True reputation comes from skill and from professionalism. Working for someone else without charging a fee doesn't fit in either category.

[*] I get credited for my work'

Again, nobody gives a crap, and you shouldn't either because I bet you'd rather be credited for your own personal work that lives up to your own standards than for the visualization of someone elses ideas. You can get that for free by publishing youir work online (FB, dA, here etc.). Word gets around. You don't need a "startup company" for that, they just want you to think that you do.

[*] I get to work on a game, which is my dream career at the moment

That shouldn't be a reason to work for free. If you can't get paid work, improve your skills. Don't wok for free.

[*] and I potentially open up a door for a paid gig in the future if their game takes off;
[/list]

They usually never do. Professional studios (even small ones and startups) will get funding somehow and pay you out of their own pocket if they have to. Asking someone to work for free is unprofessional. Period.

I suppose I could always work out some sort of deal for royalties if their game does well at all, right?

Royalties might be a bonus, they're not the same as payment. Don't work without pay, don't do spec work.

Don't. Work. For. Free.

[Busy B.]

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that when anyone asks you to work for them without pay, it beckons the questioning of their awareness of how often artists are ripped off. Especially those desperate to get their foot in the door (painfully so). Do they truly value your work and the blood, sweat, and tears you put into it?

And after they've attained what they wanted from you, how will they approach the next artist? "Experience" in exchange for unpaid work? You set a precedent that way, for everyone who comes after you.

I won't say that we're not trying to dissuade you from taking on the job, but it is ultimately your choice. Do or don't.

[Jeso]

You Don't understand, who ever wants to hire you, cant do what you do, do that someone should pay you for it. Period.

[Amit Dutta]

This reply is probably way past its use-by date but my 2 cents is, while you definitely shouldn't do work unwillingly for free, and expect it to be a normal thing, everyone's experience, situation and boundaries are their own. Don't simply accept everyone else's parroted view because that is what is considered the "right thing" to do.

If you feel like you will benefit from it and have fun, then by all means go for it. If you feel you need to test out the client/artist workflow for yourself without too much stress if it's a first time deal and you are unsure, then go for it, just don't be under any illusions.

I personally tried going down that route of little/no pay for "experience" and for me ( I work in a non art job to pay bills atm) it totally wasn't worth it. I decided it was better to do work for me, rather than for a pittance for someone else. I get approached fairly regularly (why is it always through dA?) to do work for nothing or for <$50, and I just quote them a rate of $30-$60 an hour depending on how excited I am by the gig. If they can't handle that then I wish them well with their project.

For some things I will work for royalties. One example is for a Canadian experimental music label that asked me to do some work for them, I wouldn't normally, but I liked their concept and tracks so I accepted. I also got a bunch of writing work through that contact which is now being published and released through their concept album releases. Doing work for nothing can help, just be aware of what you are signing up for!

Your situation might be different. Consider your own situation and make your own decision. Don't take someone else's opinion as a rote learning just because it sounds good. Good luck mate!

[ReneAigner]

This reply is probably way past its use-by date but my 2 cents is, while you definitely shouldn't do work unwillingly for free, and expect it to be a normal thing, everyone's experience, situation and boundaries are their own. Don't simply accept everyone else's parroted view because that is what is considered the "right thing" to do.

C'mon, that doesn't make sense at all.

By working for free or doing spec work, you're not only making your own life hell, you also make the life of your fellow artists more difficult. If you work without pay or for laughable rates for someone, they will expect the same of other artists. This kind of attitude is the reason why we have to put up with this kind of idiocy from "clients". Because there are people out there who have no problem with being taken advantage of.

It's unprofessional and it's unethical, period.

Has nothing to do with parroted views. That's just reality.

[Amit Dutta]

Hey Rene,
I totally agree with the general rule that exploitative spec work is a bad thing! I am not disputing that at all. I am questioning whether an overly simplified rule like that is good enough for all situations. What about if it is work for a small charity organisation for example? Altruism is a much better character trait than greed in my opinion. Granted that example is a bit contrived and it is not relevant in beardleys case but it does show up a flaw in the don't work for free ever rule doesn't it? It is understandable that what I said might not make sense if you have this very simplified black and white perspective of things.

What I was trying to bring into the mix is the fact that everyone's reality, situation, expectations and willingness are different. Just because it works for you does not mean it automatically is the right thing for everyone.

Just because, for the general case, spec work is considered bad, there is absolutely nothing to say that someone could not in any way benefit from doing such work if the balance leans more towards a benefit for the artist. I personally have had both good and bad experiences with low end work. I now prefer not to accept doing it anymore as I said, but at the time it was mostly fine and I learned a fair bit from the process of having "clients" and contracts and workflows and working in a production team; All those soft skills that aren't purely about a "show me the money or screw you" attitude. The artist is ultimately the judge of whether they should or should not be doing this type of work.

If they want to do it, despite all justified stance on spec work , and if they will get some genuine non-monetary benefits out of the work then why the hell shouldn't they do it? Who is to say the artist will in all cases be making their "own life hell"?
There is clearly a market for lower paid work in the Indie market for developing artists. I have seen and worked for many Indie games companies that aren't exploitative in any sense of the word, running purely on passion, are a great bunch of people who unfortunately have a tiny self-funded budget. They are hardly out to shaft everyone over, or through their "idiocy", undermine the entire industry. Of course there are those out there that are trying to get away with something for nothing, but it is up to the artist to judge which kind they are and if there are other benefits for them.

Again just to be clear, what I am saying is not that spec work is good, what I am saying is Beardley should use his own judgement, take into account all the views out there and make up his own mind on whether to do it, based on what he will get out of it for his own development.

Money is also not the be all and end all of becoming an artist. It becomes more so when talking about becoming a pro, but nobody ever starts out of the gates as a professional able to command 3 figure hourly rates. Yes of course it would be awesome to have our work valued more than it is, more consistently, I'm all for that, believe me. I am just wary about the rote application of rules when it comes from a very rigid, black and white, us v. them, with us or against us, perspective. These things tend not to be the most flexible models able to cater to changing and varied situations as they are completely fundamentalist in nature.

[Amit Dutta]

Some great advice from Ben. There is a bit on profit sharing which didn't really come into this discussion.

http://www.artofben.com/Advice

[ReneAigner]

Didn't look in here for a while, sorry Amit.

Not much to say though, I simply disagree with all you've said to some extent.

Getting paid for your work has nothing to do with greed. The "clients" opffering unpaid/spec work are the greedy ones. The artist is just trying to make a living.
Also, the argument that noone starts out as a pro is misleading. If you do work for a client, you're a "professional", technically at least. That means you can't let yourself get taken advantage of.

To quote Ben Mauro from the very page you linked to:

-Never do free work, ever.

There's nothing more to say about this. Nobody has to share that point of view, but I don't know any professional who doesn't. That's because professionals usually know it from first hand experience what it feels like to get screwed over.

e/ just to make this clear, I'm not saying you can't do personal projects with your friends or whatever. But doing unpaid work for commercial projects with people you haven't known for a long time is asking for trouble and just unprofessional in my eyes.

[Patrick Gaumond]

Hey folks, it has indeed been a long time since I wrote this thread. Thanks for all your input, it was really appreciated. I read it all when it was first written some months ago but didn't really have too much to add. I wanted to hear your opinions on it rather than throw too many more of mine in it and it's an interesting discussion no doubt, one that, despite your best efforts, in my mind still isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

So I never ended up following through with the job. Right around when I wrote this and was awaiting feedback from you guys and from the job in question something came up in my personal life which prevented me from doing any serious amount of work for almost a month; in other words I couldn't have really taken the job even if I wanted to. I sent them another message anyways and they never answered, for whatever reason, but that's not the point

I understand what you're saying rene, and I do agree with it for the most part. You should always favour paid work and decline it if it's not. I get it. But I can't even tell you how many times I've heard people get screwed over or have to literally wait months just to get paid for one project they work on where payment was agreed on both amount and date. And that's not even just little companies or small indie devs, but sometimes bigger companies that have no excuse whatsoever to withhold money from their artists. These days transferring money is LITERALLY a push of a button. No excuse.

That is objectively far more exploitative than working for someone who, upfront, plainly and matter of factly declares there will be no pay. You can't really argue with that. The dishonesty involved in telling someone they will receive X at a certain date after submission of a work, and then promptly waiting months to actually do it, if ever, with no heads up or communication as to why, doesn't even compare to taking on free work. If it was consensual from both parties that there would be no pay, you factually can not say that its exploitative. It's just dishonest and not true at all.

And you know what, I had a very good conversation with the person who asked me to work for them. They were very professional and upfront, Which is more than I can say according to the majority of the reviews of companies that HAVE FUNDING on artpact.

Money does not equal professionalism. It seems more so that money is a good way to lure in people and then exploit them rather than the other way around. Obviously not all the time, but definitely a notable portion of the time.

With all that said though, I hope its obvious I'm not advocating that all beginning artists should work for no money. People should be compensated fairly for their work , but they're also smart enough to know that free work is still experience working for someone else, and that it won't be the only work they ever get and that it doesn't necessarily take up so much of their time that it will make their life hell.

I've changed my tune since starting this thread, and I probably won't accept future unpaid jobs unless they're exceptionally (and I don't use that word lightly) interesting, and if the people are honest and professional about it. I'd much rather work for free for someone who's passionate and forthright than work for shit pay for an asshole that doesn't really give two fucks about me or my work. The fact that they have funding or promise money doesn't mean anything

[Amit Dutta]

Yeah I see everyone's point here. It's all up to us to decide what is right for our own situ. I don't condone free work at all, and I wouldn't do it myself again, I was just putting forward the notion that everything has context.

Carry on reaping that moolah people! :)

[Bookend]

Even though it's all over and Patrick didn't end up getting the job anywho, I'll just add my thoughts.

I haven't really gotten a job in art before, but I still have ideas about it.

I think that taking unpaid work is just fine, as long as you're actually invested in the project, and it's not just for 'experience'. You make plenty of experience just by practicing everyday at your work and doing personal projects.

If you're gonna take an unpaid job, do it because it's something that you wish you'd thought of, that you're excited about being a part of. If it inspires you and moves you, then cheer and draw.

For example-- If I ever got called on to do concepts for an awesome point-and-click adventure game, sign me up. lol. 'Cause that's the kind of thing I love, and there's nothing better than getting to be a part of something you love doing. That's why we're doing this in the first place-- 'Cause we love it.

[ReneAigner]

I understand what you're saying rene, and I do agree with it for the most part. You should always favour paid work and decline it if it's not. I get it. But I can't even tell you how many times I've heard people get screwed over or have to literally wait months just to get paid for one project they work on where payment was agreed on both amount and date. And that's not even just little companies or small indie devs, but sometimes bigger companies that have no excuse whatsoever to withhold money from their artists. These days transferring money is LITERALLY a push of a button. No excuse.

That is objectively far more exploitative than working for someone who, upfront, plainly and matter of factly declares there will be no pay. You can't really argue with that.

I'm not taking morals here, I'm talking business. Honesty doesn't put bread on my table. A client who agrees (in writing) to pay you for work and doesn't can always be taken to court. The time you've invested in a project that the producers themselves don't believe in enough to get funding is gone forever on the other hand.

For example-- If I ever got called on to do concepts for an awesome point-and-click adventure game, sign me up. lol. 'Cause that's the kind of thing I love, and there's nothing better than getting to be a part of something you love doing. That's why we're doing this in the first place-- 'Cause we love it.

And that's exactly the kind of thinking that these kinds of explotative "clients" are bargaining for. Just because you love doing something doesn't mean you should do it for free. I'm sure there are plenty of doctors, lawyers and mechanics our there who love what they do, nobody expects them to work for free.

By working on commercial projects without pay, you're hurting yourself and the professional community at large. Don't let yourself get brainwashed by anyone into thinking that because drawing/painting is "cool" or "fun", you don't need to/deserve to get paid.

[Bookend]

And that's exactly the kind of thinking that these kinds of explotative "clients" are bargaining for. Just because you love doing something doesn't mean you should do it for free. I'm sure there are plenty of doctors, lawyers and mechanics our there who love what they do, nobody expects them to work for free.

By working on commercial projects without pay, you're hurting yourself and the professional community at large. Don't let yourself get brainwashed by anyone into thinking that because drawing/painting is "cool" or "fun", you don't need to/deserve to get paid.

Well, some doctors and lawyers, and mechanics do work for free-- At least at first. From what I know, anyway. And some simply do it for charity. In fact, the people who do that are probably the ones you'd trust the most.

All I know is that I'm not in a position to be doing this kind of work at my level anyway, so I'm not in a position to make that kind of decision. I'm not at that particular crossroads yet, and I don't expect I will be for some time.

But, it's quite common for people to take apprenticeships and volunteer for different projects of all kinds, across many different careers, in order to get a feel for what they're doing, in order to do what they love, or to decide whether they love doing it, and all kinds of other justified reasons.

I think there are normally exceptions, and while I do agree that the rule: "Only take paid work." is a good one, and really good advice...

I do think that there are exceptions and reasons for doing otherwise, and that just because everyone says that you should do something, doesn't mean you should cater to what others think.

That being said, when I'm in a position to do so, I probably will follow that rule. But, I don't know what will happen, or what reasons I might have to do otherwise, down the line.

[Patrick Gaumond]

I'm not taking morals here, I'm talking business. Honesty doesn't put bread on my table. A client who agrees (in writing) to pay you for work and doesn't can always be taken to court. The time you've invested in a project that the producers themselves don't believe in enough to get funding is gone forever on the other hand.

And that's exactly the kind of thinking that these kinds of explotative "clients" are bargaining for. Just because you love doing something doesn't mean you should do it for free. I'm sure there are plenty of doctors, lawyers and mechanics our there who love what they do, nobody expects them to work for free.

By working on commercial projects without pay, you're hurting yourself and the professional community at large. Don't let yourself get brainwashed by anyone into thinking that because drawing/painting is "cool" or "fun", you don't need to/deserve to get paid.

The point wasn't about morality at all, it was actually only about business. A client that asks you if you'd like to contribute to a small game project and tells you straight you up nobody is making money off of it is clearly more professional than one that wants to pay you borderline minimum wage, and not only that but conveniently decides to "forget" to pay you. Whether or not you get the money is irrelevant. They were a bad, unprofessional client to begin with. Morality doesn't have anything to do with it. Living up to what you said you would do, as any professional business should, does.

Nobody here is being "brainwashed" into thinking we don't deserve to get paid. Everyone here understands that its something you do the first 1 or 2 two times as a feeler, and I still don't see why that's such a bad thing. You seem to think these projects take up years of your life, when they more likely take up maybe a week or two, and since there's no contract or obligation to do the work you can skip out whenever.


As book said, the argument that creatives are the only ones that do some free work is just not true. It can happen to anyone and it's their judgement alone that should decide the value of that experience versus the time lost and not some "rule". and it does provide valuable, real world experience, more tangible than just using that time to study or make your own work.

That said though, I think you have a good point about it happening more to artists in general than other professions, as I'm pretty sure every artist at some point or another has been approached by someone looking for free work, which is unfortunate. And ultimately, since we've had a good discussion and since I've changed quite a bit since starting this thread, I think that trumps most of the reasons I would argue to do free work on someone's project once or twice. If it wasn't so commonplace for people to approach creative types to do free work then I would have a different opinion. I still think my arguments in favour of doing it a couple of times as a feeler are valid, but I now agree with you in saying that accepting this too often, as a community, perpetuates the idea that it's easy to take advantage of us all

Thanks again everyone for adding your thoughts. It's much appreciated

[ReneAigner]

Well, some doctors and lawyers, and mechanics do work for free-- At least at first. From what I know, anyway. And some simply do it for charity. In fact, the people who do that are probably the ones you'd trust the most.

You're comparing an artist doing unpaid work onm a commercial project with doctors doing charit work? Really? Not the same thing by a long shot.

But, it's quite common for people to take apprenticeships and volunteer for different projects of all kinds, across many different careers, in order to get a feel for what they're doing, in order to do what they love, or to decide whether they love doing it, and all kinds of other justified reasons.

Just because it's the norm doesn't mean its right. Sure, one can make a point for unpaid internships as a way for absolute beginners to get a feel for a job, and in some cases that can certainly be beneficial. In many cases though, it's just a way to get cheap (or free) labour. I know of companies that run almost entire art departments with unpaid interns. They are in the "bottom" segment usually (e.g. browser games), but that's abusive nevertheless. I would only suggest an unpaid internship to someone if they know the company and know that they won't get taken advantage of.

I'm not taking morals here, I'm talking business. Honesty doesn't put bread on my table. A client who agrees (in writing) to pay you for work and doesn't can always be taken to court. The time you've invested in a project that the producers themselves don't believe in enough to get funding is gone forever on the other hand.

And that's exactly the kind of thinking that these kinds of explotative "clients" are bargaining for. Just because you love doing something doesn't mean you should do it for free. I'm sure there are plenty of doctors, lawyers and mechanics our there who love what they do, nobody expects them to work for free.

By working on commercial projects without pay, you're hurting yourself and the professional community at large. Don't let yourself get brainwashed by anyone into thinking that because drawing/painting is "cool" or "fun", you don't need to/deserve to get paid.

The point wasn't about morality at all, it was actually only about business. A client that asks you if you'd like to contribute to a small game project and tells you straight you up nobody is making money off of it is clearly more professional than one that wants to pay you borderline minimum wage, and not only that but conveniently decides to "forget" to pay you. Whether or not you get the money is irrelevant. They were a bad, unprofessional client to begin with. Morality doesn't have anything to do with it. Living up to what you said you would do, as any professional business should, does.

Look, I don't even completely understand what your point is here. At no point did I say that you shouldn't work on non-commercial projects if you want to. Of course you can, if you can find the time. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if a client is upfront about not paying you, if the project is commercial that means that the client wants to earn money and wants to exploit you. So all their being honest about is their exploitation.

Nobody here is being "brainwashed" into thinking we don't deserve to get paid. Everyone here understands that its something you do the first 1 or 2 two times as a feeler, and I still don't see why that's such a bad thing. You seem to think these projects take up years of your life, when they more likely take up maybe a week or two, and since there's no contract or obligation to do the work you can skip out whenever.

I wasn't implying that anyone on here is doing the brainwashing, but there is quite a bit of that going on "out there", believe me. I get e-mails every week asking for spec work or praising the huge "exposure" i will get if I do project X for them.
If you have to make ends meet, 2 weeks of fulltime work is a huge amount to spend doing work for someone else without getting paid. The monetary damages are (depending on your specific hourly rate) in the thousands of dollars. This is a big deal. Not even including royalties or licensing payments that those kinds of clients also won't pay you.

As book said, the argument that creatives are the only ones that do some free work is just not true. It can happen to anyone and it's their judgement alone that should decide the value of that experience versus the time lost and not some "rule". and it does provide valuable, real world experience, more tangible than just using that time to study or make your own work.

As I said above, in very, very specific situations working for free (internship) can be beneficial, mostly if you're not sure if this particular line of work "is for you". However, I'm doubtful how often those criteria are really met in real life. I suspect that a lot of internship placements and virtually all unpaid work done on commercial projects happen in exploitative circumstances in which the artist is taken advantage of.

I think my other main point is this: If you can't get paid work, why is that? Usually it's because you're not producing the quality clients are looking for. That means you have to improve the quality. The kind of work that is dished out as spec work/ unpaid work to beginners (because pros won't touch that stuff in any case) doesn't really help with that because it doesn't let you focus on your weaknesses. You have to focus on what your freeloader-client wants you to focus on. Which is why it is a bad idea to do work like that for beginners as well.