Hey daggers,
I'd really appreciate any crit on why my landscapes still look so amateurish, as its really starting to get to me.
Will add some birds n stuff to make it a bit more dynamic, and perhaps the sun is pulling focus from the castle? Also i know hte guy should be lower down so there is a diagonal eye movement rather than a boring horizontal... Anything else?
Thanks very much :)
Right now, there is a middle ground and a background but no foreground. We don't know where we stand and nothing is close enough to give us an idea of how far we are from the middle ground. As it is, the composition is leaning to the right a lot, but maybe you could fix that with a foreground.
Composition, perspective, values, depth, overlap, shape design, scale, pallette harmony, life. These things you need to work into every enviro to get it to look less amateurish.
The comp is very plain...it's a big U with the primary focal point being a somewhat brighter area in a sky of plain gray. Pick a couple of focal points and concentrate detail there only, leave it looser in other places. There is very little interesting to view and move the eye around in terms of silhouette and shape. Set and use a perspective grid and play with more interesting viewpoints than just flat side on. Are you drawing actual grids? Your sense of lighting and depth has definitely improved so now you can start thinking about controling your values even more. Use overlapping elements to help sense of depth and use elements that cross between depth levels so that it doesn't all feel like you are only layering separate 2D cutouts. Same is done with atmospheric perspective, fog, clouds etc use these behind things to pop their silhouettes out when you need to. I think for you, you really need to focus on composition and push the shapes you use to construct your landscape. Think basic....I'm only going to use triangular forms...I'm only going to use circular forms...or a combination...repeat these in various sizes and scales throught the image. Go from big shapes to small shapes, when going from outside to the focal areas of your painting. Use Reference! Photo and other artist reference to colour pick from to help you get a starting palette if you have issues at first, and stuff for ideas on shape language and design. Be observant in the world around you...make notes when you see something cool.
Start applying all of these to your work. Do more studies. You probably shouldn't just do random sketches all the time and expect to be get better quickly because it doesn't work that way when you are first learning...or at least it will take a lot longer to get better using this approach than if you actively practice the specifics. Perspective, value sketches, lighting studies, colour studies, composition studies etc. You only learn the fundamentals by doing and aping and then actively trying to apply them. Eventually you will get better at conjuring all these up together into a decent concoction. I'm sorry I know it wasn't a direct crit on this piece...but this kind of stuff is what you need to know and do right now.
@chantal
Great points thanks very much. Will add a little ledge for the viewer to be resting on :)
Cheers!
(06-21-2013, 11:23 PM)monkeybread Wrote: Composition, perspective, values, depth, overlap, shape design, scale, pallette harmony, life. These things you need to work into every enviro to get it to look less amateurish.
The comp is very plain...it's a big U with the primary focal point being a somewhat brighter area in a sky of plain gray. Pick a couple of focal points and concentrate detail there only, leave it looser in other places. There is very little interesting to view and move the eye around in terms of silhouette and shape. Set and use a perspective grid and play with more interesting viewpoints than just flat side on. Are you drawing actual grids? Your sense of lighting and depth has definitely improved so now you can start thinking about controling your values even more. Use overlapping elements to help sense of depth and use elements that cross between depth levels so that it doesn't all feel like you are only layering separate 2D cutouts. Same is done with atmospheric perspective, fog, clouds etc use these behind things to pop their silhouettes out when you need to. I think for you, you really need to focus on composition and push the shapes you use to construct your landscape. Think basic....I'm only going to use triangular forms...I'm only going to use circular forms...or a combination...repeat these in various sizes and scales throught the image. Go from big shapes to small shapes, when going from outside to the focal areas of your painting. Use Reference! Photo and other artist reference to colour pick from to help you get a starting palette if you have issues at first, and stuff for ideas on shape language and design. Be observant in the world around you...make notes when you see something cool.
Start applying all of these to your work. Do more studies. You probably shouldn't just do random sketches all the time and expect to be get better quickly because it doesn't work that way when you are first learning...or at least it will take a lot longer to get better using this approach than if you actively practice the specifics. Perspective, value sketches, lighting studies, colour studies, composition studies etc. You only learn the fundamentals by doing and aping and then actively trying to apply them. Eventually you will get better at conjuring all these up together into a decent concoction. I'm sorry I know it wasn't a direct crit on this piece...but this kind of stuff is what you need to know and do right now.
I didnt use a perspective grid in this which is probably why i had problems with everything feeling very 2D and static, will use one for sure in my next painting.
I think i detailed the second closest rocks too much as they pull focus a bit too much when they arent focal points. I'm often finding it hard to draw focus to something without having my classic pointy rocks! Need to get out of that lazy habit.
I never thought about using objects that go betwene two different 'layers', that would help for sure great point, I really hated how 2d this looked.
By 'big to small shapes', I assume you dont literally mean the focal points should be smaller than everything else? I think i understand what you meant, as in the focal points should be a more complicated and detailed shape than the surrounding ones, using smaller shapes to form it.
As for pallette, I was actually using one of Feng Zhu's sketches as a reference for this, though to a very much lesser skill level of course! I thought that colour picking was kinda cheating and that I should probably learn to find my own colors, but that doesnt seem to work too well for me so I think i may give getting my starting pallete from a photo or drawing and work from there.
I'm always looking around finding really awsome lighting situations and thinking 'wow thats really cool, I'll see if i can use that sometime', i usually take a pic too :)
I dont really post on my sketchbook as much as I should, behind the scenes I am actually doing studies and work, these paintings are kinda my down time fun thing to do, though i usually get very irritated how terrible they turn out :( I need to do more however, I'm going to make a check list of these things then keep to a strict schedule to focus on one a day, (i will actually have time now, after exams!)
I will do a study of each of those every day and post it in my sketchbook, starting monday (if i dont, you have my full permission to kick my ass). Any reccomendations as to where to start? Ive mainly be doing things like mountains, rocks, waterfalls, sunsets. I may start doing some urban stuff to get perspective nailed, as well as some different and more dynamic angles.
Thanks very much for the comment, it really is much appreciated, will keep you posted with what I do. Cheers (btw awesome youtube vid :D )
Hey man, actually for this because it's mostly organic forms you probably can get away without a grid, but it's always a good habit to get into. I think more importantly it's about experimenting with using different perspectives and breaking out of the flat 2 point perspective every so often. (doesn't mean that is bad of course) And it really doesn't have to take much time at all if you re-use your grid layers from older paintings or use a perspective brush or whatever. (literally a 2 minute job to setup a grid).
Yep you're right, so by big to small I basically mean your focal points should be made up of smaller shapes. So if its architectural you use smaller "tick" marks and lines to indicate structure and doorways and railings etc basically implied detail. If it's organic you add more bumps and texture and stuff...that kind of thing. You eye is drawn to detail so it stands that if you used a lot of smaller shapes to create something the more detail it will generally appear to have. Large sweeps of shape with less detail are good for composition and rest areas for the eye. It's just another really good way of drawing focus and thinking about composition and where to put your effort. Speed is about workflow but also about efficiency, so once you've picked your focal points don't spend a lot of time detailing outside of them.
Something that might help you with comp is that you basically start with really big interesting shapes...once I see something interesting I think about a focal points and adjust to rule of thirds if needs be. You can actually further split the canvas by thirds once you pick your first focal point to get secondary and tertiary focals that aren't always in the same spots...I did up this thing in 15 minutes for someone else I was trying to explain this to. I was also talking about value (but I think you've already understood that..just need practice) and implied detail only in focal areas. Ignore the crap painting Lol. I didn't use anything between layers either and that's why it looks so cut out haha.
The thirds rule will work every time so make sure your focal points are arranged to fall on the points you choose.
Sorry if I came across a bit harsh in my first comment, I think you SHOULD have fun with your enviros. You don't want to make it a chore...the best stuff comes out when you are having fun ... But yes if you do get into a habit with some studies then you will certainly benefit and improve! I will subscribe to your SB if you start one and comment on it every now and then.
In terms of where to start well, how about starting with picking a bunch of different enviros from both painters you admire and photos and do really basic value and composition breakdown studies. So no detail, DON'T zoom in (literally paint them at thumbnail size) Just pick 4 values and use them to duplicate the broad value structure and composition of the pieces. Definitely do this more with master painters....or any painter you admire. These don't have to take long...less than an hour each definitely. They will definitely help you think about how abstraction of shapes are important in composition and learn from the decisions the artists made.
You can do a similar thing for colour studies. Just do lots of small thumbnail size images that replicate the colour and temperatures used. Again no detail, no zooming in. For these don't colour pick. When doing studies, if you try and replicate the colours for yourself you will learn more, but you won't be wasting time on detail. When you are starting your own paintings for fun I don't see colour picking as cheating...it just gives you a helping hand.
Thanks for the comments about the vid! It's so old now and I've come a long way from there that I look at it and cringe a little at it tbh :D
Did a really quick noodle over for you to show the division of thirds to pick focal points, then detailing up according to those. I initially started with just painting, but thought I'd show you the actual division process I used so it would make sense, that's why it stalls a bit in the beginning lol. Apologies for the blinkiness and occasional brain farts where nothing happens...was doing stuff at the same time. Basically just wanted to show a workflow process for doing this consistently I guess. It would be a little different if started from scratch...lots more broader shape play to start with to generate ideas then the more specific division etc.
The other thing I was thinking about to build up the environment was to use the shapes in that main castle and push them around to get a stronger sense of design overall. During the process I ended up desaturating it quite a bit and it lost oomph but that stuff is much easier to add back in where you need it for maximum effect.
(06-23-2013, 08:48 AM)monkeybread Wrote: Hey man, actually for this because it's mostly organic forms you probably can get away without a grid, but it's always a good habit to get into. I think more importantly it's about experimenting with using different perspectives and breaking out of the flat 2 point perspective every so often. (doesn't mean that is bad of course) And it really doesn't have to take much time at all if you re-use your grid layers from older paintings or use a perspective brush or whatever. (literally a 2 minute job to setup a grid).
Wow, ok i get what you mean about breaking out from just 2 point perspective, all my pics end up pretty much exactly the same because I had no clue about the sub division of thirds, i always thought it looked forced having two focal points on the same vertical plane so this explains it a lot better! I usually use 1 point perspective brush which probs isnt the best, will do some better ones in future.
I actually like the painting a lot funny enough! Like the sci-fi feel to it, and I see what you mean with the focal points thats a hugely helpful tip thanks for that, will use that for sure. I started a SB a while ago but its got hardly anything in it so may just start another and keep it much more focussed and tight. Dw about coming across harsh, i dont take it personally at all, I really try not to attach any ego to my art so that I can improve rather than come up with excuses, so tearing apart my work and telling me what I should be doing is a very helpful thing :D
I always detail my studies way to much and they end up taking hours and i usually give up on them, so keeping it thumbnail is a good plan, will do some value ones and a few colour ones over the next week or so, only one more week until holiday freedom!!! (not rubbing it in at all... ive got 2 months free... hehehe school has its perks).
I see what you mean about colour picking now, i think i may be a bit sneaky and creat four different palletes from Feng's paintings for different scenes- ie cold grassy landscape, arctic, rocky warm and sunny warm grassy or something, i dont know! Then use those as base pallettes for my paintings until i get the hang of it a bit more.
I really liked the vid! But i completely understand what you mean about that, paintings from just a year ago or so when i started get faves every so often and I genuinely feel like asking 'why would you fave this? its sh*t!' sometimes. Still we can only improve, i will cringe over what im doing atm in the future for sure.
Your paintover was awesome, learnt a LOT from it. I like the use of repeated shapes to imply depth and how you demonstrated the sub divided rule of thirds, that was great. My plan now is to do some value studies from Feng Zhu's work and some of Dylan Cole's work and maybe a few from Hudson River Group (though I dont know how easy that will be...) today, and then over the next week do some colour and perspective studies and practices. Thanks for all the help, you've been awesome, will do my best and crack on with these studies and maybe do a fun painting with a different perspective and using divided rule of thirds some time.
Cheers!
![[Image: comp_fundamentals_by_m0nkeybread-d691pq2.png]](http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/165/2/b/comp_fundamentals_by_m0nkeybread-d691pq2.png)