Just a quick update as I haven't had time to take any pics from my sketchbook. I'll take the pcis either tomorrow or Saturday and post them then.
I was getting abit fed up last week with the constant studying so I decided to stop painting and and spend the free time I had outside of my classes to do some sketchbooking with no particular aim and just drawing for fun using my imagination.
Roughly sketched this idea for a knight/warrior which I liked the look of so I decided to develop it further in photoshop.
Rough Sketch
Used some photo ref to help with the hand and with the design of the clothes
Wasn't really feeling the empty space in the bottom left corner, he felt rather naked so I decided to add a cloak with the help of some reference that I took of myself.
Finished Line Drawing
Value Block-In
Blocked in the values using the same process that I was using for the paintings from a few weeks ago. Stuck with using the the basic soft round brush.
Started rendering the face but I'm not digging the direction it's going in, maybe I'm just judging it too early though? I'm using the soft round airbrush and colour picking from the values I have on the screen already and then using a hard round for any hard edges.
I'm trying to make it look realistic without using any reference for the lighting and I'm unsure if that's a good idea or not? I'm trying to see what I can do from imagination (mostly) but don't know if I should shoot some reference quikcly to give me an idea.
Maybe I'm just finding it hard since I don't use photoshop for painting, feel like if I was doing this tradiitonally I'd find it easier...
hes got a real babyface right now... and no its not a good idea to make it look realistic without any reference. Id reccomend getting Daz3d studio, building the scene with it, use the lighting tool, (which isnt hard to learn) and go from there. If you pose that figure in daz3d you'll see the wealth of mistakes and shortcomings youre not considering, give it a shot :)
Gotta echo what Fed said and say to use references. Also be careful with your proportions. Right now his head is feeling super large, especially in comparison to his arm. Goof luck, I can't wait to see where this piece goes!
- Fedodika: I was trying to go for a more youthful appearence but perhaps I went overboard. Yh I was toying with the idea of either seeing how far I could push myself without using reference or using reference. I see alot of artists who can go quite far without the need for reference but I think it's abit too sonn for myself haha.
I gave Daz3d ago in the end. It did help point out a few of the mistakes you mentioned such as the head being too big for the body. I was referring to myself in a mirror on my desk to give me an idea of proportions but I should of constructed the pose more before jumping in.
- chubby_cat: Thanks cat :) Yh after messing around with Daz3d I saw the proportional mistkaes I made. I should of construcuted the pose more like I did on my poster as that really helped me. Aatleast I know for next time :)
Thought I'd post some life work first. Aplogies for the quality of the photos. My rooms abit crowded atm so I couldn't set my lights up properly.
Life Drawing
Started another 3 week pose and spent the first week blocking in the figure. I started rendering this week and will continue doing the same next week so I'll post that on the weekend once I have some more space in my room.
Portrait Class
Really wanted to dome construction drawing this week and take a break from how I;ve been working the past few months. This was my second attempt as my first was god awful. Once I start that anatomy course in April and dive back into figure drawing I plan on getting back into construction drawing aswell as quicksketch, and see if I can combine the way of working that I've been doing with construction drawing as I feel like I'm still copying what I see rather than anaylizing what I see and simplifying it into something easy to read.
Illustration
Played around with Daz3d which helped identify proportional mistakes that I had made but I decided to shoot some reference of my own in the end as I prefer that way of working. Not bashing Daz or anything but I find posing a model based on my sketch much easier.
This is my drawing based on my reference.
I then printed the drawing onto some bristol board and did a value comp.
I've decided to complete this as a graphite drawing as I find working traditonally easier than digital. Plan on changing some things such as making him look younger and I want to group my values better as I feel like it's all over the place in some areas and try and design their shapes better.
If there are any proportional mistakes or any mistakes in general please let me know. I'm all ears :)
argh well, the blue drawing is a ton better, then when you shaded it, the once strong face got really weird and lopsided, the cool value patterns got washed up from the shading, same with the hand. In the blue one the hand is really clear and has a cool shape, then as you shaded it it looks mushy, you just lost alot of those cool shapes, and it having the same value as the shirt isnt a good way to make it read.
Also the shadow under the sleeve, blend those two values together instead of that skip of light between it. Its weird its like the drawing went from a 7/10 to a 4/10 its so weird how impactful those shapes are... its really got me thinkin about some things myself...
Nice! The swordsman illustration really feels more convincing after reference. I've found using myself as reference in the absence of anything else is really useful, even if I don't look like what I'm trying to draw. It definitely adds a layer of realism anyway.
(02-14-2020, 08:54 AM)Fedodika Wrote: argh well, the blue drawing is a ton better, then when you shaded it, the once strong face got really weird and lopsided, the cool value patterns got washed up from the shading, same with the hand. In the blue one the hand is really clear and has a cool shape, then as you shaded it it looks mushy, you just lost alot of those cool shapes, and it having the same value as the shirt isnt a good way to make it read.
Also the shadow under the sleeve, blend those two values together instead of that skip of light between it. Its weird its like the drawing went from a 7/10 to a 4/10 its so weird how impactful those shapes are... its really got me thinkin about some things myself...
Not gonna lie I was getting abit antsy wanting to move onto the final drawing that I kinda rushed the bottom half of the drawing, I know I shouldn't have but I felt like I was spending far too long on a value study (maybe 4-5 hours?).
Regarding the slip of light under the sleeve you mentioned. Just to be clear are you referring to the bit directly below the sleeve just above the belt? (the curve/s shape) or are you talking about the slip of light just to the right inbetween the sleeve and bottom of the sword?
(02-14-2020, 10:35 AM)JosephCow Wrote: Nice! The swordsman illustration really feels more convincing after reference. I've found using myself as reference in the absence of anything else is really useful, even if I don't look like what I'm trying to draw. It definitely adds a layer of realism anyway.
Hey Joseph your'e totally right! Definitely glad that I used reference in the end becuase as you said it adds a layer of realism that I couldn't possibly achieve from imagination :)
Meant to post an update sooner once I'd progressed further along with the knight drawing but it's taking much longer than I thought.
Spent last week working on the drawing when not in work or at my life classes but in the end I scrapped that drawing as I was not happy with how the drawing was developing and ultimately it seemed easier and quikcer to simply start again. I was trying to achieve a really fine/smooth blending of values similar to how I was rendering the Bargue drawing when I was at the Edinburgh Atelier last year/ Greg Ruth's graphite drawings but it was taking far too long (spent about 10-15 hours and was still rendering the head), and felt that the rendering looked absolutely awful.
I felt like what I was doing was not indicative of my current skill level and that I could/should be doing a much better job than I currently was so I chose to try again.
Here's the lay-in on some bristol board, the drawing is 10x14 inches.
This is currently where I'm at with the illustration. I've been using Jeff Watt's graphite drawings as reference when rendering this one. I'm liking the progress of this one alot more than the first attempt, still not completely happy with the face but I think it's the best I can currently do with my skill level. Roughly I've spent around 9-10 hours so far on this one, definitely progressing quicker compared to the first one (I'll take a photo of the first attempt sometime this week to compare).
A close up of the facial details. Had to use my phone as my camera was strugling picking up the detail.
Gonna try and complete this one by the end of this week. I want to take my time and do the best I can but at the same time I feel like I've spent far too much time at it is on this.
Side Note
I was hoing to get peoples opinion on some ideas that I've been thinking about recently.
1. Planning on going back to Edinburgh and spend a week doing a painting course. Originally planned on going mid April but my anatomy course with Scott Eaton starts end of April. I can still go to Edinburgh before it starts but my probelm is that I feel like once I get back from the course I won't have time to do any painting until the anatomy course ends which would be end of June/beginning of July due to a busy schedule.
Not sure if I'm better off going to Edinburgh after the anatomy course ends so that I can spend some time afterwards putting that practice to use which I wouldn't get if I went up mid April. I guess I'm concerned that I might forget parts of what I learnt if I went up mid-April.
2. Toying around with the idea of getting an ipad pro for art related tasks such as anatomy tracing/sketching illustration ideas/reading art books etc etc along with non art related tasks but can't decide if what I want to use it for warrants actually getting an ipad or not since it's a pretty expensive peice of kit. I was hoping I could get peoples opinions on the subject and whether or not it was a game changer for them?
I think your anatomy for the most part is good, your painting and rendering and charcoal drawing technical skills are pretty good; Your biggest issue is just making things look appealing and attractive. Every single drawing its the same issue, your technique is good, solid, even immaculate at times, its just... proportions get outta whack or your dont design the character in an attractive way and it makes all that stuff feel in vein.
Flip back and forth between these two; look how much sexier and engaging his eyes are in the blue one, how his facial structure is approaching quite handsome, i mean its not ryan gosling, but its getting handsome. The pencil one, its just gross its like some redneck inbred truck driver with like a baby face and a tiny ass jaw, its just not handsome. But your technique is good, the skin rendering is beautiful. All these things are itty bitty proportional choices that make or break an image.
IN MY OPINION; you need to just forget all the painting stuff and fancy rendering and focus on making a good, HANDSOME or BEAUTIFUL face or figure. Like design it to look appealing. And i dont mean those words like good line weight or clean gradients i mean like this person could get laid and people would want to have a relationship with them because theyre face or body is appealing in that way.
jeff says all the time that no ones going to pay you to draw something ugly; and frankly i dunno if you can do any exercise to fix this, its a mental thing. Think about, how pretty is this face, man or woman, is this person worth looking at; really just imagine that dude up there coming to life in a screen... Im just rambling at this point; Thats your biggest issue is design, the sheer quality of how desireable or appealing something is
(02-25-2020, 08:24 AM)Fedodika Wrote: IN MY OPINION; you need to just forget all the painting stuff and fancy rendering and focus on making a good, HANDSOME or BEAUTIFUL face or figure. Like design it to look appealing. And i dont mean those words like good line weight or clean gradients i mean like this person could get laid and people would want to have a relationship with them because theyre face or body is appealing in that way.
jeff says all the time that no ones going to pay you to draw something ugly; and frankly i dunno if you can do any exercise to fix this, its a mental thing. Think about, how pretty is this face, man or woman, is this person worth looking at; really just imagine that dude up there coming to life in a screen... Im just rambling at this point; Thats your biggest issue is design, the sheer quality of how desireable or appealing something is
I dunno. I agree that appeal is really important, but I feel like you're conflating artistic beauty (or appeal) with sexual appeal. I think we've all seen plenty of pieces that have a handsome guy or a big chested lady that are absolutely BAD. The hotness of the character doesn't create the appeal, it's the way they're painted! In fact it's almost even worse if a piece tries to save face by shamelessly including a hot person. Otherwise how would you ever be able to make an illustration with someone old, or sick, or monstrous appealing? I don't really think you're saying that you have to always make the subject sexy, I don't want to misrepresent your view. So I will grant that a painting of a handsome guy that's well executed is definitely a winning combination, no doubt. And it's generally more appealing to have good-looking people in your works. But I would lean more heavily on the well executed part, and I think it's more a matter of good sense of design which adds clarity to the forms and power to your ideas, regardless of what you're drawing.
Joseph i really agree, yes, painting old and people with a lot of character is important as a skill; I just see Peter a lot drawing young people, who I just know theyre much more attractive than hes depicted them. I think alot of the time his execution is good in many regards dont get me wrong. He has a few in here that are of people who arent very attractive people, but he got their proportions just right and they came off very charming.
No, it doesnt have to be sexy or whatever, I think for Peter specifically, if he focused on that, and good execution, itd help his work alot. You could draw very hideous characters like Max Verehin, and because the shapes are designed well it looks charming. Of course, verehin can also draw very attractive sexy characters so he isnt limited to that; and posessing that skill will feed into the other.
I think if peter concentrated on the most obvious thing which is just making someone handsome or beautiful, he could then go on to know how to make older or more "character" type portraits more charming. In all the portrait or commission ive done its a huge factor is just the person wanting to feel or look handsome or beautiful, even if they're ugly (and most folks are kinda ugly;) So its an invaluable tool.
Alot of the times he's really close, but it drifts off, OR he doesnt edit the line drawing as he goes along. With this swordsman, he's really close on the blue drawing, but it drifts off and hes not aware of how he's losing those valuable shapes. And its hard as fuck i know, maintaining an attractive drawing through rendering; I'm getting angry so im just gonna go do something else lol
Since when does a good painting or drawing have to have "beautiful" or "sexy" people in it? This is the worst conflation of ideas and self projection I've likely ever read on this forum. These things are highly subjective anyway.
You drew munted females with faces like squirrels that were knocked in the mouth and head for years chasing "beauty" fedo. This is likely why you over inflate its importance. The only thing that started to fix that was technical rigorous observational drawing.
The fact that you believe most people are ugly and that outward physical beauty is the reason people get laid, is...well, kinda sad. Perhaps might help to reflect on how you have shaped your worldview a little deeper.
Peter does not have this issue of not making faces look beautiful. He does have proportional and observational things to work on that will get him out of uncanny valley more. These are technical in nature , not subjective.
The appealing shape design I believe fedo is referring to, is something that is an important factor. This develops through studying other artists with that in mind, as well as focusing on that more consciously in your own work, but it is largely an organic process that comes from developing your own sensitivity and preferences and workflow as you grow as an artist, not by only drawing so called 'beautiful' people
There are some consistent proportional issues you have with heads Peter, this is true, and you are improving them. The guy likely has a suspiciously small chin structure, but fwiw, in general I think the rugged grizzled character coming through fits the illustration better than if it was boyband member wanna be.
In all the portraits from life I have done, all of them were more impressed when I captured a better likeness or some form of truth of their character...not whether I made them more good looking.
EDIT: With your edges you tend to overemphasize straight lines and hard edges where it may benefit them not being so hard. This, especially on women, tends to make things more masculine. Over-emphasising lines such as laugh lines and wrinkles or forms under the eyes can also age faces a lot. This is what happened to this last drawing and you can see it in your paintings. Easy to do when only working from photos too until you learn better what to modify from photo reference to get a better more naturalistic result.
There is also a major drawback to Watts approach I feel. They apply a too rigid formula to viewing and categorising edges and how it fits into the overall process. It is likely why everyone from Watt's school tends to look very same-y and exhibit the same problems (at least at first) Don't get me wrong, I myself have learned from the Reilly/Watts approach for some fundamental basics when going back to learn traditional media, and it was good, but for me, it quickly became obvious it was quite limited in scope on being able to be used to push your own artistic choices further. Keep that in mind as you go on with their program.
Looking good Peter.
Just wanted to quickly pop in and say to watch his ear in the piece - it's looking like it's facing us rather than going with the perspective of his head. Also might be a lil far down for the pose too.
Keep it up :)
In terms of the ipad thing - maybe if possible try and test drawing on one and see if you like the feel of it. I'm a dumbass and sunk a lot of money into a Wacom Studio Pro before quickly coming to the conclusion drawing on it wasn't fun or easy. So even if it's just in the store, try testing it for the purposes you want to be using it for.
Wasn't really expecting to cause such a stir with this illustration tbh, rather than replying individually I think it will be better to respond as a whole.
I can understand where both Fedodika is coming from and where Joeseph/Who are coming from. I do agree that I struggle ALOT with making my figures/portraits look attractive which I think mainly comes down to my shape design and I understand where Fedodika is coming from in terms of illustrations being "sexy" or appealing, becuase otherwise why would you buy something that you don't find appelaing? But I do see where Who/Joespeh are coming from in terms of not every hero/heroine looking like hollywood hunks/babes.
I feel lke my answer lies in between these two points of view which as I said mainly seems to be a shape design issue. I feel like the only real fix/solution that i can do is by embarking on alot of master studies, seeing how artists I like design their shapes in an appelaing matter and how they simplify a portrait/figure into something easily readable. I feel like when I'm drawing form life or ref that I have a hard time knowing what to emphasize and what to downplay and not just simply "copy" the person in front of me. Hopefully what I'm saying makes any sense? I'm struggling atm to put what I want to say into writing.
Who - I was wondering if you could expand on my proportional issues that I'm consistently having so i know what I need to look out for. Truthfully I haven't been actively studying the Watts approach the last few months, I've been trying to follow the atelier approach of blocking-in. I understand the drawbacks of the Watts approach that you mentioned and how people from their tend to look the same. I suppose that can be said about any approach though really as I've though tthe same about some ateliers that I have seen. I'm trying to combine Watts approach with the atelier approach (if that makes any sense?), picking the best from both.
chubby_cat - Thanks. :) I feel like it might be too latre in the game to fix the ear, I'll give it ago but don't hold your breath. I've tried an Ipad in store a few months ago messing around with procreate trying to get a feel for it and I did like it. I didn't want to make it my primary source of creating art since I prefer working traditionally but use it as a study source for the reasons I mentioned. I think I'll more than likely get one, just waiting for the new ipads to be revealed which is meant to be this month, hopefully that drives the prices down of the current ones.
Update
Been working away on the illustration the past week. It is definitely taking much longer than I had anticipated, really wish I worked smaller as my arm is killing me but live and learn I guess? Planning on finishing it this week as I'm getting abit sick of it haha.
Btw I noticed the chin issue aswell. Weird becuase it looked ok to me in my sketch..... anyway I englarged his chin (hopefully) by enough but if not please let me know.
From all older imagination drawings posts you did, you tend to flatten the top of the head more than looks natural, or in other words you make the angle transition from brow to the highest point of the skull change too abruptly so it has more of a 'corner' at the forehead (you can see this even in this last image)
You tended to make the jawbone too long as it sweeps back to the ear and often will also extend the back of the skull too far as well. The Bon iver post is an extreme example of both. But you also did this to the black guy with hat ref drawing too.
Might help to revisit how facial features are placed and aligned to the skull landmarks and do some 'gap filling' study there. Also really figure out the basics of head to figure relationships. Many of your heads all seem to start too large compared to body and end up looking strangely baby proportioned, or too small in your 'quicksketch' examples. Nail that proportion down, it's a pretty important one
wrt to your reference drawings...well just keep measuring and checking. step back from your drawings often. use photos of the drawing to help you see or take small breaks and go back to the drawing and fix everything you see that looks off.
Some of the issue that may help you think about appeal is making more conscious distinct decisions on what to make a hard edge and what to make softer, what shapes to group into a mass and what to separate. This applies to choices in value grouping as well that will create the large rhythmic patterns and feelings in the overall composition. There is no single formula but you can easily observe how others handle this in their work and emulate/learn from them directly as well as experimenting with different approaches yourself.
One choice you made in the last drawing was to render out all the hair and draw almost every. lock with hard edges. Hair especially is such a great contender for mass grouping of larger volumes and working with softer edges. might have been a very 'appealing' place to use contrast against the harder edges in the face and cape. Try it next time maybe?
Also look at the highlights on the hair. Look at all the tiny shapes that define the border of highlight to the dark. If you squint and look do you think all those little shape changes contribute to the overall? In my view you got so bogged down in rendering the detail you skipped the step of being able to look at the whole and ask yourself, 'what can i leave out or simplify or exaggerate from features of the highlight shape for best effect?'
Over-emphasising hard edges or straights all the time and always rendering everything out especially when going for something more naturalistic may lead to problems. Look for curves as well (Huston talks of S and C curves for example). Notice how in your drawing even most of the curves are drawn with straights. Great for measuring in a lay in perhaps but then not modified. Look for larger linked rhythms that may work through a figure pose for example. These help to unify your expression before you get stuck into more accurate shape placements. Not saying straight lines are bad..they can be very effective especially in stylisation but become more aware of the different effects these choices have. analyse your own work and ask if these specific choices worked or not?
It is hard to observe very hard edges anywhere using our eyes but in photos they are everywhere. Usually when working from photoref I find it's more about how one reduces edge and shape information and making clear key and value grouping choices beforehand that makes it more likely to be successful or not as a piece of artwork.
(03-03-2020, 01:00 PM)Who Wrote: From all older imagination drawings posts you did, you tend to flatten the top of the head more than looks natural, or in other words you make the angle transition from brow to the highest point of the skull change too abruptly so it has more of a 'corner' at the forehead (you can see this even in this last image)
You tended to make the jawbone too long as it sweeps back to the ear and often will also extend the back of the skull too far as well. The Bon iver post is an extreme example of both. But you also did this to the black guy with hat ref drawing too.
Might help to revisit how facial features are placed and aligned to the skull landmarks and do some 'gap filling' study there. Also really figure out the basics of head to figure relationships. Many of your heads all seem to start too large compared to body and end up looking strangely baby proportioned, or too small in your 'quicksketch' examples. Nail that proportion down, it's a pretty important one
wrt to your reference drawings...well just keep measuring and checking. step back from your drawings often. use photos of the drawing to help you see or take small breaks and go back to the drawing and fix everything you see that looks off.
Some of the issue that may help you think about appeal is making more conscious distinct decisions on what to make a hard edge and what to make softer, what shapes to group into a mass and what to separate. This applies to choices in value grouping as well that will create the large rhythmic patterns and feelings in the overall composition. There is no single formula but you can easily observe how others handle this in their work and emulate/learn from them directly as well as experimenting with different approaches yourself.
One choice you made in the last drawing was to render out all the hair and draw almost every. lock with hard edges. Hair especially is such a great contender for mass grouping of larger volumes and working with softer edges. might have been a very 'appealing' place to use contrast against the harder edges in the face and cape. Try it next time maybe?
Also look at the highlights on the hair. Look at all the tiny shapes that define the border of highlight to the dark. If you squint and look do you think all those little shape changes contribute to the overall? In my view you got so bogged down in rendering the detail you skipped the step of being able to look at the whole and ask yourself, 'what can i leave out or simplify or exaggerate from features of the highlight shape for best effect?'
Over-emphasising hard edges or straights all the time and always rendering everything out especially when going for something more naturalistic may lead to problems. Look for curves as well (Huston talks of S and C curves for example). Notice how in your drawing even most of the curves are drawn with straights. Great for measuring in a lay in perhaps but then not modified. Look for larger linked rhythms that may work through a figure pose for example. These help to unify your expression before you get stuck into more accurate shape placements. Not saying straight lines are bad..they can be very effective especially in stylisation but become more aware of the different effects these choices have. analyse your own work and ask if these specific choices worked or not?
It is hard to observe very hard edges anywhere using our eyes but in photos they are everywhere. Usually when working from photoref I find it's more about how one reduces edge and shape information and making clear key and value grouping choices beforehand that makes it more likely to be successful or not as a piece of artwork.
Thanks for such an in-depth critique Who. Going back to skull studies was on my very long to-do list and as you said fill in some of the knowledge gaps which I've definitely felt when working from life.
As you said I believe my main problem is getting caught up in the details and thinking that I need to emulate everything that I see in front of me to create a good likeness aswell as a nice drawing which I know isn't the case, I think it's just the lack of knowing what and how to simplify all the information in front of me.
I feel like all the errors you pointed out to me can mostly be solved by doing master studies which was my next plan of action once this illustration was finished. Already got a list of artists sorted so I'm going to spend some time compiling a bunch of images to work from and pretty much spend the next month tackling that.
Finally finished the illustration over the weekend, atleast I think I have? I was thinking of seeing if I could improve on it some more but I feel like I should leave it as it is, see what I can learn from it in terms of what I need to work on and go back to studying.
Here’s the finished piece
I tried incorporating a background like in my original design, working on a seperate peice of bristol board since I was worried that I might screw up the drawing. Tried using a graphite powder and a brush to simulate clouds but I wasn’t liking the direction it was going in. I beleive it is definitely do-able using that approach but I think it would take me quite a few more hours and at this point (roughly 30 hours?) I feel like I’ve spent far too much time on it already for what is essentially one figure.
I tried to create a glare effect off the sword incase your wondering what those 2 streaks of light are but I’'m not sure if that is clear since I’m using an off white background.
My original plan was to learn more about screen printing after this was done which I’ve been doing the past 2 days since i’ve strained my elbow but after working on this illustration I thought going back to master studies would be a better idea to help me improve on my shape design and simplification as I felt those where the glaring issues holding this piece back aswell as my work in general.
It looks great! It's pretty inspiring to see it grow from the first sketch to the finished piece!
I heard a quote recently that's really helped me, to get things "Finished, not perfect" since if you look back in a year at what felt perfect, it doesn't look perfect anymore, so better to work on finishing things. It felt somehow relevant to you, I guess I'm trying to say you did a great job on the swordsman, call it finished and move on to the next thing ^_^
