EDIT: OMG!! Get your violins out..!! This into sounds so pathetic lol.. What I meant is I'm not as good as I'd like to be (who is) and I'm here to try and improve on my current abilities. Especially when it comes to digital painting... So hello and welcome to my SketchBook of 2022+.
Hey lovelies!! It's been way too long.. I won't bore you with my history just know I'm incredibly unhappy with myself and my art. The more I practice the worse I get. Paying for tutorials and courses and 3 years of art school clearly hasn't helped as day after day year after year its the same muddy inability to create realism or any kind of nice art as it just looks constantly unfinished, flat, disjointed, muddy, messy, off.. I tried to turn this into a painterly style or even tried other styles but there's just something about what I do that just doesn't get me there.. I don't know what to do any more.. Help?
- I genuinely feel like I am wanting to create photo realism / semi-realism, with a view to do fantasy / horror art maybe..
But I feel I'm trying to create an oil painting masterpiece using poster paints..!!
I think lighting plays a big part on achieving realism, so i think you need to focus on that part. Dorian Iten has a website and youtube videos those might help.
Don't be shy and message me if you have any questions.
(06-21-2022, 07:24 PM)prince0-100 Wrote: I think lighting plays a big part on achieving realism, so i think you need to focus on that part. Dorian Iten has a website and youtube videos those might help.
I am sick of searching on YouTube and Skill Share. Apparently no one has ever done "Realistic Clothing Digital Painting" nor fabric, textiles, digital art, painting... and I've tried every combination of the term and I'm just getting people who really aren't 'good enough' to be doing tutorials, plus not realistic.. Concept art which isn't fully rendered.. Or things that are absolutely nothing to do with what I asked!!
I'm getting upset because everything either looks super blury like I painted everything with the softest brush I could find and there's no definition. Everything looks too hard like I just coloured in some line art with kids felttip pens. Looks like I did it with wax crayons. Is too textured and now becoming painterly / muddy and I'm back to the same upset..
I am using my own shirt for reference. And trying to pay attention to light and creases and values, while I'm not trying to copy crease for crease, shadow for shadow, wrinkle for wrinkle etc etc.. I am trying to make it look like an actual shirt - semi realistic / photo realistic.
I know I'm not going to achieve this in one day. It takes years of practice but I've had years of just churning out the same thing. How do I actually do this??
I honestly I have now painted this shirt with soft brush, hard brush, texture brushes a mixture of the above. And I am just getting the same crappy result that isn't what I want my art to be. And now the more I try I'm making mud. Working on one layer or fifty layers it just doesn't look like it should.
It ok to be at a point where you don't feel good about thing you produce. But art is very much about attitude toward problem. Are you commited to understanding the problem or are you more concern about not being where you want with your art...
Because it about where you put your attention that will help you find the right anwers .What i am saying here is you can't let emotion get in the way of a logical problem since it not an emotional problem(well maybe it is since emotion are getting in the way of logic)(Better said than done)(Specially when you become impatient with where you stand as an artist)you just have to recognize that you have to be grounded in a attitude that is looking outwardly for solution you don't have yet which is what you are seeking by being her on this forum.
I think what you need is a solid sense of structural approach when it come to what brush you use and when to use them to simplify thing.I suggest starting with a soft brush creating the more gradiant part of the drawing than once you have everything blurry but with the right value you don't panic because you know now that your at a stage where you understand it time to clean up what is refer to edge (soft or hard edge) alternate between a soft and a hard brush to get the edge quality you are looking for.What i am saying basically is you solve the value first and than you can focus on the edge with a mix of soft and hard brush.What i typically do is start with a hard brush for outline(on it own layers) than and i block out everything witin that outline with 1 value(on a separate layers under the outline layers)
Once the outline and block out is done.I use a big soft brush to start creating the most important large portion of gradient meaning where value shift the most where there alot of contrast. You need smaller brush where it extremely contrast meaning hard edge or where you get very fast value change meaning small soft brush.
The value doesn't have to be perfect just close enough.But as you progress you start to use smaller brush stroke will help soften this gradiant as you approch the edge cleaning phase.If you need to use a texture brush i advise leaving that step toward the end.
It doesn't matter that much if you can't find tutorial on realism since realism is the most achievable style there is out there.You just have to open your eye. You don't need to go dig up for tutorial you just need good image or to draw people from life(little bit harder if you don't pay for a model to stay still)all you have to do is draw and learn to use the right question that mean you understand but a few thing here plane, value, light direction what brush to use and when since you work from a colored ref you need to understand how turn that into the greyscal version.The subject matter is irrelevant because value is a principle of any artwork.It simply a fundamental aspect of anything in the real word.
I hope i offered you a clear enough structural approch and i probably understand it easier to watch a tutorial if you are a visual learner.But alot of the process is just tweaking nothing magical.
It really boil to not alot
1.brush size
2.brush type
3.brush opacity
3.Using the right combination of 1,2,3 to get 4
4.Right value
5.Placing that value in space
Getting realism down starts with a solid understanding of Structure first. Have you been jumping around with your learning resources? As in, not sticking with one for a period of time?
Here are ones that helped me. Not to add to your list but perhaps you can find some value in one and stick with it this time.
(06-22-2022, 03:11 AM)darktiste Wrote: Hey welcome back long time no see.
It ok to be at a point where you don't feel good about...
Hey, yes it's been a while!! What you said makes sense. I am absolutely here because I want to learn how to get past / improve what I'm doing.. As more I want to learn to progress and develop and not to wallow in self pity (which is what I seem to be doing, unintentionally).
I have a whole line art drawn out - layer turned off. I may finished the self portrait (to the best of my current ability) and then strip it right back to the beginning beginner levels basically.
Thank you for what you said, and your time you took here THAT truly is appreciated and I'll absolutely work towards learning from it, promise.
- Apologies for the late response, I went to sleep as I'd given myself a stress migraine.
Getting realism down starts with a solid understanding of Structure first. Have you been jumping around with your learning...
Yes! That's a rarher good point perhaps learning too many ways to do X is hindering my works (in a too many cooks kind of way).
I definitely have heard (from many of the people I've watched) that there's no right or wrong way to achieve the same result and that we can all work differently and still achieve desired results.
I think I need to finish this to the best of my ability, its a self portrait. Then strip it back to learning basics from the beginning - and as you suggested not looking at MANY artists. Perhaps there's a good course on Skill Share that is following one artists process from A-Z and then find my own path from that. Rather than overwhelmed by so many different artists that what I do doesn't happen as I want.
Thank you and also a huge thank you for your time and references!! I hope to learn and grow from what you've said, I honestly haven't looked at it this way and it makes sense!!
(06-21-2022, 07:00 PM)miimogenation Wrote: The more I practice the worse I get.
Aw I'm sure that's not true! Although I find it believable that art school, and years of looking at various tutorials haven't yielded much. It's probably a matter of just not approaching it in the right way where you understand the basic principles, and with them do whatever it is that you desire. You mentioned looking up yknow like realistic cloth tutorials, and I think that's kind of the issue. A lot of tutorials do not focus on principles, but on specific tips and tricks to achieve various effects. Those aren't what you need, really. They do practically nothing for you in the long run.
So for the shirt, you are going to achieve it! Believe that you can. But I disagree with darktiste that realism is easy style to achieve. If it was, there would be no need for art schools, and books, and special training for realism, since anyone could easily just sit down and do it. This photo of a shirt is also very tricky, so don't feel bad if it isn't looking how you wanted. I also really think you might want to ignore stuff about using layers, and what brush to use etc. etc. because all of that is honestly just kind of a distraction.
When I'm looking to paint the shirt realistically, I'm going to cycle between 3 different skills or principles.
1. Drawing
-Look at angles, proportions, shapes. It's kinda self explanatory that good drawing is needed for realism.
2. Relationship of colors/values
- Finding abstract relationships unique to the picture. Like how bright is one plane of the shirt compared to the one next to it, compared to the background? Is the jump between one piece and the piece next to it greater, smaller, or is it perfect? Should the color be warmer or cooler? So this is thinking completely abstractly, not about whether it's a shirt or anything, just the impression of it two dimensionally.
3. Modeling form.
- Completely opposite of the abstract value relationships, this is using the values that you got from that to describe the 3D effect of form. This is the perception that as the form bends towards or away from the light it gets brighter or darker, and gradating it accordingly so that it appears to have the same form as in the reference.
So if I look at the shirt and think about number 2. The shirt is much more similar in value all over. It doesn't get so dark in the shadows and creases. This is what makes it so hard and delicate to paint. It's not really so bright either. So I break it down into large masses and compare one to the one next to it. From this reasoning I get a general impression of the shirt, and some specific relationships that I think are right.
Then I can think about number 3, and use those values that I gathered from the ref to mold the shirt into specific forms. For example I notice the right collar, the shape and form is quite different. It comes to more of a point at the corner crease. And it rolls over in a curve into the chest, it isn't a sharp edge. So I can show that by make a subtle gradation at that edge. And every single inch of this fabric could be analyzed similarly, but I just start with the major things.
Number 1 gives me the shapes. Number 2 gives me the value relationships. Number 3 informs me specifically on where to place the values so it looks 3D.
For an area like the bottom left, that is probably the most complicated part of this. Very subtle changes in value which describe numerous complex forms. I recommend isolating that. It's much easier to see what needs to happen when you abstract it, isn't it? When I cut it out so it kind of looks like an interesting white leaf, suddenly it becomes a lot easier to slow down and paint that. In general you need to slow down and get a lot more specific. You're too general about it, like the left collar lapel thing looks muddy just because the shape of the shadow isn't closely observed.
The longer you spend the more specific and delicate your corrections should be until you've been as thorough as you want to. I don't usually study things like shirts super closely because I probably wouldn't put a super detailed shirt in one of my paintings. But as an exercise it's good. I like to find the strong relationships of value that make things look real in the sense that it strongly describes the light and form, but not necessarily model it completely. When you see loose paintings, which are realistic like those by Zorn or Sargents that's basically what they've done. The colors are perfect, and the drawing is perfect to the extent that it is there, but it isn't smoothly finished. Photorealism just keeps going until every detail has been depicted. Which is absolutely fine if that's what you desire.
So yeah, this definitely isn't a perfect, there's a lot more that could be done. I could sit and correct each part of what I painted for a very long time. But that's the goal, to get the structure well enough that finishing it is just a matter of time spent. Hopefully this gives you some idea of how I and other students of realism might approach the problem. There's really just those three principles or ideas that get applied. Within each there is a lot of nuance, but they are also all things you can specifically practice and get better at. It's important to note that I never mentioned anything about how to render fabric texture, or how many layers to use, or brushes. I really just don't think those types of things are important. I do know that this is kind of just adding another cook to the kitchen, and I realize I might just be confusing. But I still wanted to add my 2 cents. Others have also mentioned some good places to look for training like Dorien Iten. He's really good.
I didn't meant that it was easy in the execution but that it was the ''most accessible'' so there for the most easy to get information on because of the amount of tutorial available i gotta correct that statement. It also the easiest to get started with because you can straight out look anywhere around you and start right away no need of abstract concept there already a ton to learn aslong as you ask yourself question and develop the vocabulary that help expand on what you see this vocabulary is accessible because we can describe what we see already it just a bit more specific as you expand to learn more.
It hard because it observation and people think they look but really they miss alot of information.If you aren't train to describe what you see well all you are really doing is looking at something in a very abstract way.But the more you can describe the subject the better it will be for you.It certainly not enough to have observation alone you also need the coordination to translate what is in front of you.
I disagree with john the tool doesn't make the artist but the tool should be your friend so you better understand why you use one brush over the other.Being confident with your tool is a step foward toward being confident with your art and i think small step are often overlook.
Yeah I guess I agree in the sense that realism is concrete in a way other things aren't. If you are copying from a model, then you have a really concrete goal. You already know what it should look like. Still easier said than done, though.
The thing with the brushes, like yes I agree, it's easier to paint if you know your tools, and have the right tools. It's probably worth practicing with different brushes to build some techniques. But you kind of have to be already trying to do the right thing with them before selecting the tool to do it with? Like I'm not disagreeing with your approach 1-5. But with realism we are mostly just interesting in 4 and 5, right? If you know the right value, and where to put it, then finding a way to make it happen is kind of a minor problem at that point. But I will admit I'm biased, as I have always liked unpolished or sketchy artwork, and am much less likely to care about techniques which other artists find indispensable.
(06-21-2022, 07:00 PM)miimogenation Wrote: The more I practice the worse I get.
Aw I'm sure that's not true! Although I find it believable that art school, and years of looking at various tutorials haven't yielded much..
Oh man.. You made it look so much better..
I ended up just doing some weird painterly texture brush so I could actually move forward and focus on what I personally felt I wanted to achieve; a self-art piece to the best of my current ability. Which some 11 hours later I believe I have achieved, and will upload soon. Taking a small break before giving it one last look over.
But I will absolutely give that shirt another go - when I'm less burnt out since I've been up since silly am!!
As for what you said about art school etc I did walk out of art school with excelling abilities in video editing, traditional and digital photography, extensive knowledge of adobe suite (but I'm painting in procreate due to health) and also skills in traditional and digital photography, A LOT of friends which some years later I no longer have. But it wasn't a complete waste; I actually learnt a lot about myself, got some qualifications and skills in other mediums - I also now make and sell jewellery due to what I learnt..
But as pointed out to me last night, and I replied.. I never considered being overwhelmed by SO many artist and tutorials and ways to do things.. So it could turn into a 'too many cooks' situations. I am glad I did this self-piece and as said I have a view to go back to basics and break things down from a more beginner level. I do need a more positive mindset.. And support..!!
As for what darktiste said I do like to believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions.. But I agree with you that it really isn't easy to achieve, without practice. But I don't wish my sketchbook to become a place of drama as I truly appreciate responses and people taking the time to read and reply. It's so nice feeling like I'm not alone and that boosted my confidence so much!!
Thank you for your advice and the 3 different aspects. And the detailed information and repaint/paint over - I will absolutely revisit this shirt painting soon!!
Thank you so much for your time and words JosephCow it's so appreciated.
Sooooo.. I went to sleep early woke up at silly am and decided to get on with it to the best of my abilities. - Without being influenced by more tutorials. So some 11 hours ontop of the original 3..
And I'm quite pleased with out it turned out.
Date: 21 & 22 June 2022
Time: Apx 14 hours from start to struggles to "finish".
Tools: iPad Pro 12.9" - Apple Pencil 2 - Procreate App.
Possibly the best art I’ve ever done!! ..and selfies are hard. Sooo.. Feeling happy-ish.
Possibly the best eye brows I’ve ever done. Using combination of hair brushes but mostly a single line brush to draw in each single hair.. - I actually liked doing that better!! Eyes aren’t terrible either. IMO
Also possibly the best lips I’ve ever done.. Genuinely my worst part of doing faces as they always tend to just float.
But I am learning with this.. I actually had fun.
Also texture brushes to repurpose into skin defects and textures.
Again when viewed smaller the skin looks muddy. I genuinely don’t understand because the alternative is people telling me I need to learn values. Bleh.
Hair didn’t go too badly. I definitely need to stop relying on premade hair brushes even if I did do a lot of soft brush, hard brush and 1pxl brush to draw individual strands..
^ As said in last reply I'll repaint this shirt, but what I ended up doing was just using a textured brush so I could focus on what I wanted to create (a self portrait with my current ability / skills - Which I believe I succeeded in). I did however not cut off the over paint on the "finished" piece. But this is sort of how the shirt would have looked if I did.
Nice! you really nailed the subtle color changes on the face!
Sorry, we don't usually create drama, necessarily. I think this is a good forum to try out your ideas. Even if it's confusing, it's at least probably better to have a bunch of cooks bickering with each other than an empty kitchen.
I'm glad you did get things out of your art schooling, I didn't mean to imply it wasn't worth anything. But I know for me doing an art program in college wasn't the way to go to learn like, really strong, coherent principles of realistic painting. It was a broad overview of many, many different things.
(06-23-2022, 03:01 AM)JosephCow Wrote: Nice! you really nailed the subtle color changes on the face..
Thank you so much.. Today I'm looking at that shirt. So I started by taking the actual image cropping it to just the shirt. Drawing over to create lineat (mostly for time purposes) and then creating a solid block colour off white shirt. Which I'm now painting on a clipping mask layer..
..Well I say I'm painting on a clipping mask layer but so far I've spent 2 hours getting frustrated over brushes. - Now I know fine well it's not about the brushes. I have a mixture of pro create, paid for and free brush sets. And I have the same issue which is I believe if I select a brush, 100% opacity and black and make a stroke I believe that stroke should be black. Not grey and the more times I got over it it gets darker. - It's a peeve. I believe pen pressure and opacity slider should determine this and not painting over my previous laid colour, often without even lifting my pen. I genuinely can't paint like that.. So that seems to limit my brushes.
Procreate users seem to be all about customising brushes - which I'm useless at. I made a few Photoshop brushes following tutorials a long time ago and this isn't that.
So I've settled on a brush, which is awful BTW.. just to do values - which is a solid brush with softer edges. Because hard brush with hard edges doesn't give me blending.. And soft brush is too opaque even at 100% which is fine for small brushes and detailing but not so much for laying out large mass values with gradient..
So I've now sat down and I'm finding where do I get my colours from??!! I don't want to colour pick - because art from my head or still life I can't just colour pick from. But my Fibromyalgia brain is struggling to do values, find colours, create form and shape and texture and..... So it's overwhelming while I 100% understand I just can't make it come out..
I figured if I did black and white "value study".. Then just use this awful brush (but at least it's the 'colour' it should be and pen pressure determines results not multiple passes building colour. Just to throw down some "values" while trying to guess what shade of grey I need.......
Do I colour pick while learning. Or?
And struggling because this brush is ultimately far too soft and I'm tempted to just put a texture brush on to paint in values even if it will become painterly and destroy all texture required just to get the values down. So now Fibromyalgia brain is over thinking.. Struggling because my brain can't do all these things at once.. Especially right now, I believe I can do it and I am being positive and I know if I walk away I will just be in this same predicaments next year..
So here I'm at this awful start..
That said though I do remember on Photoshop I basically did my art with hard brush on low opacity and super soft brush on full opacity and did my art with that - constantly being accused of using the smudge brush.
..I stopped for years and then found I forgot how to hold a pen let alone how to make art happen.. So then there wasn't really any improvement because I struggle to even do what I used to do..
I did ditch that brush (mentioned in my last post) in favour of the one I usually use to lay the foundation paintings / especially for skin. - This worked SO much better for me!! I was able to get the bulk of it done and then the details; by not colour picking from reference photo..!!
I am really pleased with how it looks and in all honesty I truly can't be bothered to do any more to it..!! Values aren't great - darks are too dark, lights oddly darker than reference but seem too bright (probably because darks are too dark).
Hair and skin are just place holders for this study of my shirt.
Shirt Study
23rd June 2022.
Apx 4 hours (inc 1-2 hours of trying brushes).
iPad Pro 12.9" - Apple Pencil 2 - Procreate.
- I would have uploaded this update / study to CD sooner but system error wouldn't let me. So I spent a further hour or so trying to manipulate the shirt to fit onto yesterdays self portrait. Which did require repainting some of the hair. I also repainted and darkened up some other areas to look less flat. And truly pleased with myself.. And massively thankful to those who commented here, which really helped.
Selfie Study
22nd & 23rd June 2022.
Apx 20 hours total (inc 1-2 hours of trying brushes).
iPad Pro 12.9" - Apple Pencil 2 - Procreate.
I would say you might have one of the following problem
1.You brush sensitivity a bit to high making laying down small amount of value a problem
2. other problem might be that you take value that are to dark (you need to observe more and take in account what around the value in term of value to see it correctly(yes value and color around a value change were perception of that value or color)
3.You push to hard on your tablet pen.
The problem observe i see is that you put darker value that the reference and it not only true for the cloth but for the fleshy tone.
(Small note you can hit the lips and nose with a bit of highlight to give that extra realism.)
Honestly? Looks really good! There's a huge difference between the new and the previous shirt, it's a lot more crisp looking. With the brushes I don't really know, It seems like you've figured out what kind of works and what doesn't. I would probably be having the same struggles as well because I don't use procreate. I think just going for black and white was a good idea, it makes it a little less complicated of a problem.
What you said here:
Quote:So I've now sat down and I'm finding where do I get my colours from??!! I don't want to colour pick - because art from my head or still life I can't just colour pick from.
is actually a really good question, and the answer is that it's relative to something that you can be pretty sure about. If it's white or black, or at least the lightest or darkest part of what you're painting, then you have a solid reference point to base the things around it on. Having filled in your kind of general guess as the overall color and value of an area, you then pick a plane of value, like let's say the flat part of the collar. And you say, well let's say it's this shade of white. If true, what would the value next to it be? And you can see that on the front of the shirt it's the same, but a tiny bit darker. And then as the shirt turns away into shadow it gets a tiny bit darker still, and maybe warmer. And you ask yourself if it has the same read as the reference, if it's the same relationship or is yours too dark or too light. As you go you can refine these decisions. So now for instance you have realized like, oh mine has too much contrast and it's because I made some parts a little too dark. And that's good, it's just part of critiquing your work. With experience and practice you can figure out these relations fairly quickly by trying numerous combinations of color notes together in quick succession before any real work has been done painting details you won't want to redo.
I also want to mention that this is where your sense of form comes in as well, what I was talking about earlier. You can look at two values you painted next to each other in the 2D sense, of just purely how does this look compared to the reference? But also, you can ask, does this value look like it turns the form the same amount as the reference! Because changing the value changes the form. And that might be an idea you don't need to deal with at the moment, but I want to mention it because when you paint not from direct reference, that becomes important.
That being said, I don't necessarily think it would be bad to pick some colors from the photo just so you have something to start with that is definitely right. Or just check if you're on the right track when you're stuck. It kind if puts up some bumpers so you don't get way off. But obviously if you're just picking every color from the photo you aren't training your eye, which, as you mentioned, is an issue when it comes to still life, or painting from your head.
(06-24-2022, 12:47 AM)darktiste Wrote: On the last piece
I would say you might have one of the following problem..
Thanks!! I'd really love to see you do a self portrait, or portrait from reference (you can use my image if you like). I'd be interested to see you demonstrating what you mean!!
Also this wasn't at all intended as a study trying to recreate that photo. It was litterally about me doing a self portrait with my current skills. The photo was purely for a "this is what I look like". It wasn't at all important for me to copy as is. Thus my hair is different, I added my ear and tunnel and since I drew this not traced it there's lots of aspects that see off. My face is fatter in the drawing and my chin should be longer and the glasses are off and enlarged on one side. We could sit and pick appart and play spot the difference all day BUT the point of this creation was to create based on my current skill level and abilities.. Not to recreate the photo!! X
(06-24-2022, 02:03 AM)JosephCow Wrote: Honestly? Looks really good! There's a huge difference between the new and the previous shirt, it's a lot more crisp looking. With the brushes I don't really know, It seems like you've figured out..
You can (apparently) import Photoshop brushes to procreate. I would do this but honestly I feel the issue is me not knowing how to brush rather than it is bad brushes. Lol.. Experimenting is required..!!
Thank you for your kind words. I'm taking a break from art today to play more Destiny but tomorrow who knows what I'll do!!
