" I realize it's appealing to visualize yourself as this 'me against the whole world' romantic, but that path can be isolating and could only harbor resentment."
That's how it's gonna be with me dude, i wish I could change it, but nothing motivates me more and to be honest I hope I never lose it. It's a moral and personal difference between you and me.
It's been fun roughin and tumblin with ya john, I can't make these walls of text everyday, I don't feel like anything is getting done here... You can write me off as a lost cause and I won't be too tore up about it. Thanks for the crits btw, I hope something we said to eachother will stick in the long run, or at least with someone who read it.
If it takes me many more years to get anywhere so be it. I'm just too dense to change for now I suppose. I'll have the pedal to the metal the whole time 8+ hrs a day, and maybe people can appreciate that "romantic" heroic me vs the mountain ideal that I succeed despite my arrogance.
Come by any time bud, no hard feelings.
"the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars. Nothing behind me, everyhing ahead of me so on the road." Jack Kerouac
Abnormal: Thanks for the tip! I tried that out and it had better results, just gotta do it more! Many hairy lines to go through hmm...
Gonna be doing some caricatures downtown again, I got a nice easel to make it more obvious what I'm doing, because I feel like that's my biggest obstacle is just people don't know what the hell I'm up to, despite having a 3 foot tall sign that says what I'm doing in huge letters. Usually make good money though, like 20$ an hour, but I only get to work usually about 3 hrs before everyone's gone, since it's a market event every saturday.
Also, I think I'm getting somewhere with these cylinders, just being like analytical with them. umm, the box helps for sure. Also did some scratchy spheres on the computer to check if the spheres I was doing were actually spheres. I drew them in the shape what I was doing on paper and then overlayed a premade circle shape and dropped the opacity, and they were about 98% correct. So that was cool.
So had a pretty good day out in town. I make good money there, in a small amount of time, like 20$ on tips.I probably shouldn't type right now... lol (little influenced under a lotlel .l)
I feel like those excercises will benefit you tremendously.
I always limited my drawabox excercices to 30-40 mins a day within the periods I did them, cause an imaginary Amit and John Silva kept telling me it was more efficient to work on finished imaginative pieces. I Also heared it in Amundsen interview and Anthony Jones' learning method is also to do characters from imagination at least after every 20 minutes of studies.Otherwise, he says, you don't know if you improve or not. Dan Warren said art was like sport, you must excercise all groups of muscle, do color, values,composition etc. all the time or you lose the skill.
But dammit. Maybe some kind of people need to really grasp those fundamentals first. Focus on one thing untill it the brain can almost do it unconsciously. Like probably me and you. Maybe a month or so of just that won't harm us. Not sure though. What do you think? And, by the way most of those boxes are made from imagination/memory by using consruction methods, so you can't really be accused of too much copying.
Have you tried doing box rotatables? I take a real box these days and rotate it in imagination and then check the drawing with a real box, doing just 3-5 in the morning.
Hey neo, Yes they are! They've skyrocketed my linework in my caricature stuff. The shapes I draw are much fuller and concious with the form. Your mention of Silva and the like; yes that's important for people who have done what I'm doing now, properly, as they start from the beginning on the barebones fundamentals. I, on the otherhand, have for the past four years pretty much only done painted studies or characters from imagination; heeding very closely to their advice.
Hence, despite my flawed drawings, I have a decently developed understanding of color, value, texture, composition, style, and that sort of stuff. I agree with you, in that a month of this should really seal the deal, and I have more of a clear idea everyday what my little exercises will look like when I'm ready to slow down on em.
The stuff I draw with a thick marker or a charcoal pencil has very nice and bold lines, but not these ballpoint pens. I have a lot of issues with confidence and where to make the lines because pen is just hard, that and my shapes are mediocre. I don't draw from reference, but I know when my shapes look wrong because I see so many of them everyday, and I can go over them with lines to correct it exactly how I know it should look to be right. Everything should look even in that box that I put the cylinders in, or the lines to gauge the cylinders. I get a few percent closer everyday, so I know I'm not lost.
Everything I look at now, be it my own work or someone else, I think in terms of curves and proportions within the shapes. Like I'm slowly seeing those correct basic shapes and how vital they are to the impression of solidity and function given to a drawing. I hate that I never saw it until now, never appreciated it, was just so hypnotized by colors and textures.
I certainly need to grasp these shapes first because I already know a thing or two about anatomy and design, it's just the stuff I've done is skewed and therefore loses it's merrit subcionciously in the eyes of the viewer because of it. I see the logic in applying it to characters, but I've already done that so much, I mean I get it, just gotta drill it into the mind so I can use it. I totally understand how you would build anatomy and stuff out of these things, it's just when I go to apply it it still looks skewed, despite knowing where the muscles should go and their proportions. So I go right back to shapes drills.
Structure is my weakest muscle in the Dan Warren analogy. I'm like a weightlifter who has buffed up everything but his legs, and from the top up he looks cool, but when you see the rest of him, well, it's awkward. I've read every chapter in the book on art but chapter 1 which is the longest one. I could come up with analogies for this all day, Lol thanks for stopping by neo! :)
MOOOORE SCRATCHIES!! read a lot of The Mad Art of Caricature by Tom Richmond today, bout 1/3 through it, learning some very valuable tricks and insights!
I feel my shapes are getting slightly more accurate, but I need to focus more on the line weight and trying lighter lines, then adding heavier ones instead of just doing heavy ones.
Glad to see you focusing on some fundamental stuff.
I want to address a misunderstanding you seem to have about the point that we all mostly seem to be making about applying study to "imagination" work.
You said " I, on the otherhand, have for the past four years pretty much only done painted studies or characters from imagination; heeding very closely to their advice."
I can't speak for others, but that has never been my advice, so I apologise if I wasn't clear enough.
My advice has always been the practical testing of your study learnings regularly.
Each iteration is one complete "learning cycle" if you like.
A learning cycle is completed in the application of a period of study to a practical situation, and then checking to see where the sticking points are. You then grease the groove with study again or move ahead depending on what your measures of success are and how you gauge you performed against them.
What is personal and flexible are the measures you use to test success, and what the period between these stages is.
AJ said somewhere 20 minutes, study to practical application according to neo.
I think it totally depends what level of study you are at and the subject matter. I think a week of study and then applying is probably fine on the longest end of the scale, but the practical application and analysis should come as shortly after your period of study as possible to get the best results.
I personally would err on the side of more frequent periods of practical testing of the study focus, again dependent on what the specific skill you are learning is.
Now I NEVER started this way, and in fact only realised the power of this learning cycle when I was already nearing the skill to be able to freelance. This is highly useful if speed of improvement and efficiency of learning is the goal. Wish someone told me this when I started. Up to you how you decide to apply this info.
I 110% understand this now Amit, and I apologize i I lumped you in with some people, I wasn't really considering all the things you'd told me. It wasn't really a concious decision to describe that as what you might advocate.
I used to think quite the opposite of how you described learning. My perception was "study and draw a lot." which will lead to improvement. So, I did that, to a quite ridiculous amount (hence my 100 lb crates of sketch paper and 90+ digital pieces a month.) Problem was it was just like spinning a wheel for the sake of it and not really learning anything.
So I completely understand what you're saying, despite some of the vocabulary which admittedly is beyond me. You must understand the visual and functional elements something before you can draw it properly. You draw it, find what is missing or what can be done better in reference, add that on or start again and add it. That's it.
Fundamentals help you understand in a realistic context how to mathematically express that thing. That's where the shapes come in, studies etc. I get it, it's very logical, and the opposite of how I percieved art initially, as being very expressive and emotional. (Which explains my frustration and my desire to be rebellious, as I had imagined that's how art was, but not this particular industry.) Fortunately, I've had that rebellious beaten out of me over the years, and I appreciate the mature and practical application of drawing in painting in the real world as products and novelties.
Now with these boxes and shapes, I just want to get them right, and I'm getting close to it, it might take a few more days for them to not bother me, but I just gotta grind em out. But I did do some caricatures today and the shapes translated over quite well, things are still slightly wonky but a hell of a lot more manageable. Even rendered one and somehow knew a lot more of how pencil lead weights and sharpness would affect the shading.
My boxes are still skewed, but the lines are getting better and better, I can see it in action. A lot of bad things to beat. I'm very optimistic at this point, the logic has clicked, just gonna take some more damn boxes and stuff to prove it! I'll need a foundation for these anyways, and it's so underdeveloped it will need some extra time.
Haha everytime I get a comment I think, okay let's give him a sentence and move on... Never works out like that lol.
Sounds fair Amit. I am sorry that I misenterpreted some of your words. :) This study-application balance is a painful theme for me and an almost daily reflections subject matter.
Actually, even the word "application" is not precise at all. I mean, if we look at any form as a combunation of simple forms (masses), it's all about increasing the number of simple shapes, while taking care of their interaction (ocerlapping, castig shadows on each other, etc.) , so even a mug from memory/imagination is kinda application, just a much easier level of application complexity level compared to jumping to a whole character.
Koala-san your boxes look better more accurate and clean, can't say for sure about caricatures cause I haven't followed you for long enough but seems like they do as well! I actually like them more then those that I saw before. Especially the 1st and the last one. Keep going :) I hope you don't mind me spamming here almost daily :D
As for your cylinders, when drawn in perspective the bottom ellipses should be smaller and fatter than the top ones if the eye level is above the cylinder. Can't see it right now in your drawings.
Oh I don't think you misinterpreted what I said Neo! Fedo, I'm not up in arms or anything haha, just wanted to address what seemed like a misinterpretation? :)
Yeah application is a broad catchall word that isn't very useful and gets people confused. So if you have been studying boxes and rotating them in perspective for a bit, you might then try and construct a scene with buildings in it that are also differently rotated in perspective, or do some figure construction which relies heavily on being able to rotate bounding boxes in perspective well. A funny thing to think about is that if you do multiple studies of the same things, the later studies are almost "applications" of the older studies haha.
The application doesn't have to be a full blown illustration at all, but I think it should be directly aligned to test the skills you were just practicing but towards a purpose of actually drawing something as opposed to simply drawing a cube rotated in perspective for the sake of that alone. After all the purpose of study is to get better at the general craft, not to get better at study.
This applies hugely to creating illustrations though, because by studying specific things that you intend to have in the illustration beforehand, you will simply just do better in the final. It can make study more purposeful and allow you to test where you need more work.
Neo: Thanks! Feel free to spam here everyday lol, I love having some replies to read in the morning :) I mean who doesn't lol. Yep gotta grind out a few more cylinders, there might be some up there that are correct, not sure. I think the ones in the boxes aren't too bad.
Amit: Got it! I think...
Did a sketch for my main commissioner client. She wants this androgynous fox furry person with some other foxes drinking tea who are half yin yang angel demon things. Bless her heart...
Hey, money's money!
Good chance to try out actually applying these shape drills, think it helped a ton! Let me know if something looks wrong, not totally sure about the rocks, but I usually figure that out while painting since the values play a bigger role there.
Amit-sensei yep I agree. Looks like I didn't really misinterpret but just did not have a chance to read your more detailed opinion. :)
Fedodika I just realised I wrote about 3-point perspective cylinders. If you meant to draw them in 2-point, just the bottoms ellipses should just be fatter. and the side lines parallel. The convergence is sometimes very subtle in life so we just draw them in 2-point and these's noting wrong with that. And I did not really look at the older post yesterday, sure the ones in the boxes are better :)
Nice convo we have here, things start settling in my head finally, thank you guys.
I am not sure what you would classify as wrong. Who knows which marks are deliberate, which ones aren't. If you would indulge, treat this as an observation. You get to decide if it's incorrect or not.
- Fox person is not symmetrical. Compare both hands and forearms.
- Way the shade of gray is contoured, looks like the fox person's chest is caved in a bit.
- Those scratchings on its chest, that kinda looks like chest hair, looks like it's sliding over to one side.
- Plate looks uneven
- Cup handle, especially the one on the left, looks wafer thin.
I'd recommend you recheck both foxes anatomy, especially their hind legs, if they really are foxes. And I'd remind you to recheck your line weights. That said, well wishes on the client work!
If you are reading this, I most likely just gave you a crappy crit! What I'm basically trying to say is, don't give up! ---- IG: @thatpuddinhead
Neo: <3 X Thanks I tried some box 3 point experiment today, yea they're skewed but it was kind of eye opening how I see how I could go about making like a city for it! interesting...
John: thanks man, I tried to fix everything you mentioned. It's just tough to find good references of foxes, sure their face is easy, but like the well shot angles that show musculature is tough. So I had to improvise, and I saw my dog lying down and noticed his hind legs kind of bow out, and the front arms kind of punch up through the torso.
There's a lot in this line drawing I left ambiguous since I don't want to hyper detail everything, gotta leave some to imagination. Also did this awesome baby hippo drawing that I love, I had this kind of unique problem today. I finished the sketch, and I thought... Shit, where do I put drawings I actually like? My room is piled high with sketches I don't think are special or noteworthy, but finally I put this little guy in his own place to be himself!
Also did a lot of caricature studies from Nate Kap, and some other guys. Dude is amazing, but I'm starting to see like this skill cap that these sort of live entertainment caricature artists get to. Sure it's whacky and fun and often times inspiring, but it just feels limited to me. Still love it, always will, and hey, coloring with pastels is still something I don't get at all, so that's something to work on! Maybe I'll save up and take Court Jones course, I really want to learn more about the Reilly abstraction method.
alright so finally about done with this commission, and can get back to some more hard stuff lol. So I'm signed up on schoolism again, this time I'm taking Thomas Fluharties oil painting course. I really want to shed these digital crutches and learn to draw "the real way." you know, without transform tools and cntrl Z. It's hard as fuck, especially because I can't transform and that's a big crutch for me is resizing the canvas and shrinking the sketch to fit. Gotta beat it though, and it's tough (and extremely frustrating) so I feel it's worth doing.
So I did this first sketch on paper, photod it then painted it digitally. Obviously it looks much better, then I printed it out, what I had drawn, and tried to draw the very thing I drew myself, to a kinda cut off head and some proportion problems. I guess I need to just do it more, I feel I get a little better everytime, and I can't be bothered to learn some stiff grid method. I wanna be able to just feel the marks intuitively and judge accordingly as I've been doing.
My father really liked the painted one, he said he'd even buy it and thought i didn't do it. So that's good I guess. Digital just feels so fake to me, so many crutches for me at least. I want to learn the real way for a little while, maybe to help me appreciate what I do know.
aight, so I'm takin the oil painting thing on schoolism, and learning fast a good working process. Finally got a decent (not perfect) line drawing after several attempts and painted it. I love how tangible it is to have a semblance of a real painting in your hands; it's just a lotta freakin hassle to keep and maintain the tools and what not. Probably go buy some canvases one day when I get good at this.
All through this today, I was thankful I could draw (decently.) I used to have such a weird approach to oils, but it's mainly about putting the dark values down, then light, then lighter, then IDK what cuz I haven't got that far with Fluharty. Eventually I'm gonna watch every goddam lesson on that site and just soak it all up!!
Forreal though, I need to study structure more, this would make everything looks 100X cooler. Even though there is an idea of structure there, my eyes are not satisfied. After this I might take Seiler's course on realistic portaits, cuz I want to paint some REALLY nice faces. Also be doing some caricature stuff tomorrow, I mean studies. I wanna show form better with a marker.
Aight, did a lot of these caricatures to practice today. doing a back to back thing saturday and friday, gonna be doing a local artwalk and the regular. I've noticed my lineweight could be better with this stuff, so I'm trying to focus in on that, doing lots of studies. Also, paying attention to the T-shape. I'll get a big shot of them all on the floor when I get a bunch more done.
Hey Fedo - it's great that you're doing some traditional painting as well mate - looking good. Sounds like you had to take a couple of shots at the line sketch for that last oil piece though - maybe check out Dorian Iten's Accuracy guide again? (I'm sure you've been around long enough to have seen that already).
Keep it going dude!
“Today, give a stranger one of your smiles. It might be the only sunshine he sees all day.” -- H. Jackson Brown Jr.
