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So I'm gonna keep this short and simple , I had this idea some time ago and I posted it somewhere , I believe the suggestions for the crimson challenges or something.
Anyway , after playing through 3 bioshocks , watching the feng's video on creating worlds and mourning the fact that I had played through 3 of the most breath taking amazing games with beautiful story telling , I decided I would just throw this idea out there on the crimson daggers forums. Why don't we make up our own games/narratives, of course it doesn't have to be as dense and perfect ( fanboying over here , #PraiseKenLevine ) as Bioshock or Bioshock Infinite, but at least something like substrata ( a game that never became a game , but became a cool art book with concepts for the alleged game ).
We could bounce off ideas off of each other and make our own Pipeline. Maybe I'm the only one that finds this interesting but I think it would be cool to instead of reducing ourselves to illustrators or concept artists. We could put on our game designing hats and give it a try.
Hope you guys could understand my proposal here and thanks for your time.
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I love this, its also what i've been doing for months now, since i'm just starting to develop my own game in the unity engine. If you have an idea for a project, post it! it would be really cool to post here some of our game design related stuff to share ideas. I always tell people to start with their own projects like the substrata book you mentioned. Its an awesome way to keep you working and creating and will definitely make you grown in many ways.
About my own experience, so far, while its true that now i have less time for painting/drawing i'm learning lots of things like 3d, coding and the most fun and interesting of all: game design and narrative.
And everything is connected, what you learn about level design may come useful even in illustration, and viceversa.
I now have a folder with around 70 different concepts and illustrations from the different rejected ideas, from an advance wars clone, to a tactical rpg with mechs. A waste of time? not quite, i really learned a lot about how technical limitations limit art and design too, and how at the same time, the same limitations can make you start thinking differently and open new paths.
The type of game i finally started developing is an open world action rpg, the obvious influence are games like Gothic or the Souls series. (Mostly because anything involving "tactics" or "strategy" would require to code stuff far beyond my knowledge)
And about the narrative, i prefer when a story has a more stylistic narrative. When its more about showing rather than telling. So in terms of mood and narrative the biggest influence would be stuff like Blame! or Texhnolyze, both masterful cyberpunk works.
Basically, now that i know what tools i need to use and (more or less) know how to use them,
i think my process will be something like this in the coming months:
1- First of all: World building, then design the game, levels, game mechanics, etc...
2-Gather ref/inspiration
3-Do lots of concepts of characters/assets/scenarios to set up the mood and visuals. The reason for designing everything first was to make the visuals around the game mechanics and the level design.
4-Start with the production of the 3d graphics, animations, etc...
5-Build a prototype to start testing.
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That would be a cool idea. I have thought about making a game for some time but know nothing about making them however, I would love to help out where I can. I recently started messing around with the Unreal Engine. But what makes Unity your desired engine then Eduardo?
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@horse: no real reason haha, i also knew zero about game development (and now i know maybe a 1%) but the sooner you jump in the pool and get wet, the better. :)
I just heard it was free and easy to use compared to other engines, plus it was perfect to make games compatible across platforms. But now that the unreal engine has become free too, maybe i will give it a try too.
I also recommend this youtube channel, about games and game development mostly, but it touches other subjects like history. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTc...vPCOr_Uydg
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Alright , so I guess this is almost a lift off , we should start brainstorming right ? Or.. what's the plan ?
Should we decide what the premise of this game/story is , what world it is on , what characters drive the story ?
what now ...
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I was trying to learn how to use Game Maker Studio a while back for the same reason. Its more of a 2D engine which I figured would be a lot easier than trying to make a 3D game. Plus I really like the old SNES games from when I was growing up. I finally gave up when my computer couldnt seem to handle the software needed. Im building a new computer so that wont be an issue. Im still at a loss to how to program even simple code though so it'll be a while if ever I do make a game. I have all these grand ideas for game mechanics that are probably completely impractical and I'll have to condense down into something I might be able to code. Maybe if enough people are interested we should start a study thread for people working on their own games. If anything to shoot game ideas at each other.
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Yeah Adam something 2D with a nostalgia-esque feeling would be great and easier.
I was thinking we should just get a team of people and brainstorm.
I really don't know what is the best way to jumpstart the ideas of the game/story , I really think it should have a story line , however we dont have to build the game around a story line , we can just build it off of a single thing like a cool character , a cool place , a cool object ... Basically anything.
Maybe we should start off with loose ideas and then find reference and trying to unify all the ideas together into a story/game.
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Well I've been bouncing an idea of a fantasy RPG/Adventure/Tactical dungeon crawler based on a few of my favorite old 2D games. The basic idea would be a tower that players ascend or descend. You'd have to make it to the top or bottom level in one run without any teleports back to town to buy health pots or new items.
Its based off of this little known game from PS1 called Azure Dreams. You basically spent the whole game making it as far into this tower with 100 floors until you had strong enough weapons (and pokemon type pets that you level up) to make it to the top floor and fight the final boss. The player character's experience was reset to level 1 every time you reenter the tower so it was a pretty challenging game. Not only that but you were limited to carrying only 5 items going into the tower which included everything from your healing herbs to your sword, shield and pokemon dudes. The game play itself was like a turn based version of zelda where each action you make is a turn and the enemies move or attack with each move you make. Its hard to explain exactly haha. Id recommend checking it out.
I have a lot of other ideas but my basic idea is to rip off Azure Dreams :D
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Okay so, assuming we set azure dreams as our base game design ,how do we twist it's design and build upon it.
Alright , so I took a look at some images I'm guessing instead of the funny looking , anime-esque vibe it has , instead , it could have a gloomy dark souls/ bloodborne vibe.
I guess we could set the mood first.
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Quote:I was trying to learn how to use Game Maker Studio a while back for the same reason. Its more of a 2D engine which I figured would be a lot easier than trying to make a 3D game.
Doing a 2d game can be even more difficult than a 3d one, it depends. But doing even a simple asset or animation in pixel art can take you up to 10 hours, keep that in mind. There is a reason why everyone jumped into 3d as soon as the technology became avaiable.
Roguelikes are experiencing a revival lately so thats not a bad idea at all Adam! you can always replay Azure dreams and think "i dont like this particular thing, or i would have done this differently, etc..." and think about your own version of the game, eventually it will become your own concept.
Quote:I have all these grand ideas for game mechanics that are probably completely impractical and I'll have to condense down into something I might be able to code. Maybe if enough people are interested we should start a study thread for people working on their own games. If anything to shoot game ideas at each other.
That sounds great too, one might argue that this forum is focused on art/concept art but game design involves basically everything that people come here to practice, so i dont think i thread like that would be out of place. Also i forgot to mention, one awesome thing about unity, is that you can make a test scene or a prototype, upload it to the net and let everyone test it from their browser, without downloading or installing anything. It can be great to try out features and mechanics and let people test them with ease.
Quote:Okay so, assuming we set azure dreams as our base game design ,how do we twist it's design and build upon it.
Alright , so I took a look at some images I'm guessing instead of the funny looking , anime-esque vibe it has , instead , it could have a gloomy dark souls/ bloodborne vibe.
I guess we could set the mood first.
What about going with that anime happy times looks on the surface, but making the story and the mechanics of the game have a much darker and disturbing nature. So the player starts adventuring and everything looks nice but there is a feeling of "something is not right..." then after a few hours into the game the player starts thinking "this is not for kids, definitely not for kids..." and you can leave it at that or going into full downer ending/mindscrew/existential crisis territory haha.
Or if you if you want to make the game more humorous and comedic, do the inverse. Let the aesthetic of the game be as dark as possible but make the actual story/characters/mechanics be as soft and lighter as a childrens saturday cartoon.
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Yea I was thinking something like that too especially since I dont know how to draw anime anyways haha! I did a concept of a character I thought up for it.
I named him Angus. Hes an angry Scottish dude who gets his arm chopped off and a giant demon arm attaches to him. Not the most original idea but Im not trying to reinvent the wheel. I had a funny idea that he was a fat dorky ginger kid that got picked on all the time so now hes this angry, emotionally stunted brute. I had ideas for a young priestess as a healer, a wizard thats looks similar to Orko from He-Man and a thief kid with a bow and arrow. Havnt drawn any good concepts for them yet.
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Well , Im gonna be absent for the rest of the day , but I just want to leave this message. Every idea is valuable , so just start throwing in the mix , however, for every idea ask WHY .
I heard the guys from bioshock infinite threw away 5 games worth of design so just keep going at it.
I do like Eduard's idea of making it anime-esque or kinda child like , perhaps like chrono trigger , but making it only like this on the surface and as you dig deeper it reveals itself as a fucked up universe where shit goes down. So assuming there's this tower thing that adam said , about the tower, why would he risk his life to go in there , what's in there that is so valuable?
I'l be back later as soon as I come home, you guys have a good day.
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Quote:Doing a 2d game can be even more difficult than a 3d one, it depends. But doing even a simple asset or animation in pixel art can take you up to 10 hours, keep that in mind. There is a reason why everyone jumped into 3d as soon as the technology became avaiable.
Oh yea I remember realizing that back when I was messing with pixel animation. I just really like the look of 2D sprites though. Azure Dreams was cool in that it combined 2D sprites with simplistic 3D environments. You could rotate the camera and the sprites all had turn arounds that changed as the angle changed. I realize its more work that way but its got such a strong nostalgic appeal to me because so many games I loved where like that.
Quote:Roguelikes are experiencing a revival lately so thats not a bad idea at all Adam! you can always replay Azure dreams and think "i dont like this particular thing, or i would have done this differently, etc..." and think about your own version of the game, eventually it will become your own concept.
Cool, I didnt even know what a roguelike was till you said that. I just really like challenging games that make me think strategically. And oh believe me I've rethought the game ideas from different games sooo much. I just dont want to spend all day typing it to you guys and overwhelm you haha! I want to combine elements from Azure Dreams, Zelda, Chrono Trigger, FF6, Tactics Ogre, WC2 and Diablo.
Quote:Also i forgot to mention, one awesome thing about unity, is that you can make a test scene or a prototype, upload it to the net and let everyone test it from their browser, without downloading or installing anything. It can be great to try out features and mechanics and let people test them with ease.
Cool, I was planning on downloaded Unity on my new computer in the next couple weeks after I get it put together and stuff. GameMaker Studio also allows you to play it through your browser and you can publish it to be played on smartphones and other platforms.
Quote:What about going with that anime happy times looks on the surface, but making the story and the mechanics of the game have a much darker and disturbing nature. So the player starts adventuring and everything looks nice but there is a feeling of "something is not right..." then after a few hours into the game the player starts thinking "this is not for kids, definitely not for kids..." and you can leave it at that or going into full downer ending/mindscrew/existential crisis territory haha.
I thought about doing that too! We must think alike haha! Like what Nino said about Chrono Trigger was exactly what I was thinking. Also had this weird idea to make a game with a western style setting and characters like Diablo that travel to another dimension which is Anime style Akira Toriyama-esque reality. And some of the characters are vaguely aware that they exist inside a game to entertain a god like being which is the player.
Quote:Or if you if you want to make the game more humorous and comedic, do the inverse. Let the aesthetic of the game be as dark as possible but make the actual story/characters/mechanics be as soft and lighter as a childrens saturday cartoon.
That was something I was thinking about too. With the character Angus having this past he doesnt want to talk about. While hes putting up this flimsy persona of an ultra bad ass hes really a scared little boy. When he gets really angry he shouts out shit like "No Daddy! I dont wanna!" to which the enemies have a look of fear and confusion as this huge axe wielding maniac with a giant arm charges at them.
Also the priestess character is this innocent sexually confused nun who fawns over this pretty boy knight Sir Lance who has an ambiguously gay relationship with his squire, the swarthy Francisco.
Quote:So assuming there's this tower thing that adam said , about the tower, why would he risk his life to go in there , what's in there that is so valuable?
My idea for that was that hes pursuing this bandit that killed a shop keeper. The old shop keeper was the only person who was ever nice to Angus when he was a kid so hes on a revenge mission. The bandit originally has the demon arm attached to him but during the fight Angus loses his arm but still kills the bandit. The arm then attaches to him. Its a sort or revenge story that turns into a redemption story. Either Angus is consumed by the demonic arm and loses himself to its will or he finally breaks free from his hatred. I even have game play mechanic in mind for this concept. As he uses special attacks with his demon arm it fills a meter. If the meter fills completely he essentially loses himself and becomes completely taken over by the arm. He has to get blessed by a holy character to empty the demonic meter.
Also since he had to enter the tower to fight the bandit hes now trapped in the tower until he can defeat the bosses at the top and bottom. Thats just a rough idea but my ideas for what the tower is and how it works go a lot further than that. I could try to explain it all right now but I think I've typed enough.
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Quote:Oh yea I remember realizing that back when I was messing with pixel animation. I just really like the look of 2D sprites though. Azure Dreams was cool in that it combined 2D sprites with simplistic 3D environments. You could rotate the camera and the sprites all had turn arounds that changed as the angle changed. I realize its more work that way but its got such a strong nostalgic appeal to me because so many games I loved where like that.
hehe i'm actually like that too, Xenogears for the psx is my fav game ever, and it mixed 2d sprites for the characters with 3d models and backgrounds. But as much as i love pixel art, its way too much work. xD
Quote:I thought about doing that too! We must think alike haha! Like what Nino said about Chrono Trigger was exactly what I was thinking. Also had this weird idea to make a game with a western style setting and characters like Diablo that travel to another dimension which is Anime style Akira Toriyama-esque reality. And some of the characters are vaguely aware that they exist inside a game to entertain a god like being which is the player.
Indeed! i was thinking of Chrono trigger too. Behind all the cheerful colors and relentless optimism it had really dark undertones, and lets not talk about Chrono Cross...
Quote:That was something I was thinking about too. With the character Angus having this past he doesnt want to talk about. While hes putting up this flimsy persona of an ultra bad ass hes really a scared little boy. When he gets really angry he shouts out shit like "No Daddy! I dont wanna!" to which the enemies have a look of fear and confusion as this huge axe wielding maniac with a giant arm charges at them.
Also the priestess character is this innocent sexually confused nun who fawns over this pretty boy knight Sir Lance who has an ambiguously gay relationship with his squire, the swarthy Francisco.
haha thats awesome, i wish i had a talent for comedy, my very first game idea was very humorous (a game like advance wars about the second world war with the world leaders like roosevelt and stalin as little anime girls xD then i realized i just cant do comedy.
Quote:My idea for that was that hes pursuing this bandit that killed a shop keeper. The old shop keeper was the only person who was ever nice to Angus when he was a kid so hes on a revenge mission. The bandit originally has the demon arm attached to him but during the fight Angus loses his arm but still kills the bandit. The arm then attaches to him. Its a sort or revenge story that turns into a redemption story. Either Angus is consumed by the demonic arm and loses himself to its will or he finally breaks free from his hatred. I even have game play mechanic in mind for this concept. As he uses special attacks with his demon arm it fills a meter. If the meter fills completely he essentially loses himself and becomes completely taken over by the arm. He has to get blessed by a holy character to empty the demonic meter.
Also since he had to enter the tower to fight the bandit hes now trapped in the tower until he can defeat the bosses at the top and bottom. Thats just a rough idea but my ideas for what the tower is and how it works go a lot further than that. I could try to explain it all right now but I think I've typed enough.
Cant really say i like the revenge start, it has been too overused over the years. Maybe if you could add a darker twist to that it would be more interesting.
And the demonic arm mechanic is pretty awesome, you have a really great premise for a game here:
"you are slowly turning into a monster and losing your mind"
The player can be in the middle of a level or a difficult boss fight and only think about using the demon arm as a last resource, because using that power is really dangerous, and every time you use it you are one step closer to your doom. So you are asking the player, how far are you willing to go? how much are you willing to risk? of course a compelling storyline to make all of this matter would be needed. xD
But if the demon arm can be emptied, then its just "oh the bar is almost full, time to go visit the cleric"
This approach would work for the "happy exterior dark interior" route though, and i imagine it would be kinda heartbreaking to see the protagonist losing his mind, his body and mind beign devoured but his own arm, make him call for his mother while all of this happens, just like when he is being hit by enemies but the change in context would make it disturbing and horrifying instead of hilarous.
Just wanted to give you some ideas haha
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So we should make something like , the player has to choose , either he uses his demon arm that gives him a plus and a minus or he chooses not to use it , which has a plus and a minus. Then the player decides it's route , we could really build something like , you know , in the end of bioshock 1 you either harvested the little girls and end up going to the surface to fuck shit up and rule the world, or you set them free ( but ur less powerfull ) however you've given them lives, true lives.
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Yea maybe not a cleric visit. I was thinking juggling the demonic meter would be an on going thing. Kind of like rage for a warrior class in WoW but in reverse where you want to keep the meter low instead of full. Maybe if he takes damage or uses certain abilities to lower the meter? That way hes got really powerful moves but he can only use them sparingly like Ed said. Hes only one of 4 characters I had in mind so I wanted to make each character have interesting individual mechanics.
I do like the idea of a game with multiple outcomes to the story though. I never played any of the Bioshocks unfortunately. I've heard they're amazing though. I kinda fell out of playing the newer games and dont even own any consoles anymore. And I always wanted to play Xenogears but never did back when it was out. I got into emulators last year and tried to play it but the emulator kept screwing up on me. If you guys like classic JRPGs theres one I never played when it came out called Suikoden 2 which is really good story wise and game play. Another old game thats a new favorite of mine is Tactics Ogre. Great tactical game with a very good story.
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The problem with giving a plus and a minus to either using the power or not, is that then the choice doesnt really matter. The choice simply becomes a matter of aesthetics, which is one of my biggest problems with modern games tbh.
If the player refuses to use the demon arm the game should be considerably more diffificult, without any gameplay rewards apart from not being consumed by it.
But this is only my personal preference of course!
Quote:I do like the idea of a game with multiple outcomes to the story though. I never played any of the Bioshocks unfortunately. I've heard they're amazing though. I kinda fell out of playing the newer games and dont even own any consoles anymore. And I always wanted to play Xenogears but never did back when it was out. I got into emulators last year and tried to play it but the emulator kept screwing up on me. If you guys like classic JRPGs theres one I never played when it came out called Suikoden 2 which is really good story wise and game play. Another old game thats a new favorite of mine is Tactics Ogre. Great tactical game with a very good story.
Xenogears hasnt aged too well i'm afraid xD it has a low start and some really frustrating dungeon design and text speed, but if you can look past that you have the game with the most deep and beautiful story ever. And the soundtrack is godly.
Ah Suikoden II is just one of the best games of all time haha, damn that Luca Blight boss fight is one of the most epic battles in any jrpg ever.
And what do you guys think about narrative? do you like more games that give you lots of information and kinda "take your hand" or games with more vague narratives like the souls series does?
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well yeah that's why I mentioned the plus and minus , like he gains something if he uses it but also sacrifices something. It's not about aesthetics
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i was talking about this: Quote: or he chooses not to use it , which has a plus and a minus.
if both options give you good and bad things/are equally viable, then its just a matter of taste to choose to use the arm or not, it becomes something like choosing to use a mace or a greatsword.
Not using the power, simply makes the game more difficult, while using it gives you power but has some serious disadvantages in the long run, thats what i was trying to say. :)
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well that's what I said , it's like bioshock , if you harvest the little sisters you get more ADAM , thus making you stronger by killing the little sisters, however , if you rescure them you get less ADAM , but you end up saving a little girl's life. So the player is put in a moral dilema . I think choosing between using the arm or not should conflict a player not only because of the perks but also in an emotional way and for this we need a storyline/plot/premise.
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