CC September

[genosgrande]

Hey, I've been working on this painting of a goblin and space dude in a junkyard. 
Here's a WIP. Having trouble with the guy right now, the bg, and the goblin arm, so basically everything. If you've got any advice it would really help. Thanks!

[Amit Dutta]

:) Good on ya for posting. The leg looks much better, definitely use ref for any problems you have!

[genosgrande]

:) Good on ya for posting.  The leg looks much better, definitely use ref for any problems you have!

Thanks, I think I just moved it too far out after adjusting it the first few times and I just moved it back a bit. I'm a bit wary of using reference on my illustrations. I think I kind of use these paintings to test my knowledge to work on stuff before moving onto the next painting.

[Artloader]

Nice work so far Genosgrande :).

Just a couple of things I noticed:

1. The main guy looks a bit off balance - try standing in a pose with your knee up like that and see what adjustments you can make to his pose. I think you might need to move his standing leg so that it is straight and aligning directly below his head.

2. The goblin guy looks quite beefy so maybe try beefing up his arm (make it longer and more muscular).

Hope that helps - keep it going!

[genosgrande]

Nice work so far Genosgrande :).

Just a couple of things I noticed:

1. The main guy looks a bit off balance - try standing in a pose with your knee up like that and see what adjustments you can make to his pose.  I think you might need to move his standing leg so that it is straight and aligning directly below his head.

2. The goblin guy looks quite beefy so maybe try beefing up his arm (make it longer and more muscular).

Hope that helps - keep it going!

Agh, I didn't read your post today before painting. I think I corrected some of the things a little. I did adjust the leg today but I don't know if it was enough. I'm not sure why I didn't notice the arm proportion to torso. I want him pretty stocky. I'll try adding some mass to his arms tomorrow too!

[Amit Dutta]

I'm a bit wary of using reference on my illustrations. I think I kind of use these paintings to test my knowledge to work on stuff before moving onto the next painting.

Ok fair enough if you want to test your knowledge occasionally, but you can do that in a shorter drawing more often. If you don't use reference for your longer illustrations you're really just wasting your time struggling and the final result will definitely suffer. Use reference.

[John]

I second what Amit just said.

Just to add, may I impart to you the oldest trick in the book: I got this advice from a local comic book artist. He told me to go buy an action figure (with high articulation of course), pose that thing, light it and nail the structure down on your page.

Ever wonder why the Avengers Mansion looks the same even though it's drawn by different people across different books? Marvel artists go as far as referencing 3D models provided by the company to keep that consistent look.

[genosgrande]

I second what Amit just said.

Just to add, may I impart to you the oldest trick in the book: I got this advice from a local comic book artist. He told me to go buy an action figure (with high articulation of course), pose that thing, light it and nail the structure down on your page.

Ever wonder why the Avengers Mansion looks the same even though it's drawn by different people across different books? Marvel artists go as far as referencing 3D models provided by the company to keep that consistent look.

Any recommendations on quality figures? I've seen some of those before I think in Dan's vids. I just don't want to become reliant on figures.

I never really read any comics :S

[John]

The one I got isn't as elaborate as Dan's. I got mine from a toy fair that sold for less than 10 bucks. Marvel Legends Spider-man. One of the first figures they put out!

Not sure about what's the best action figure out there for reference. I just picked one that looks fairly close to the human anatomy as possible (who am I fooling, I love Spider-man), and highly poseable. Those were my top 2 requirements.

I never really read any comics :S

Oh you... I'm sure you do! Okay, to be more specific, I'm sure you read manga. One of the great artists out there, Takehiko Inoue (Slam Dunk, Vagabond) used references.

Such as:




Reference!

[genosgrande]

The one I got isn't as elaborate as Dan's. I got mine from a toy fair that sold for less than 10 bucks. Marvel Legends Spider-man. One of the first figures they put out!

Not sure about what's the best action figure out there for reference. I just picked one that looks fairly close to the human anatomy as possible (who am I fooling, I love Spider-man), and highly poseable. Those were my top 2 requirements.

I never really read any comics :S

Oh you... I'm sure you do! Okay, to be more specific, I'm sure you read manga. One of the great artists out there, Takehiko Inoue (Slam Dunk, Vagabond) used references.

Such as:




Reference!

Yeah, I've seen that before. I dunno it's kind of disappointing to me though, especially since it was completely copied except the face. I heard Dave rarely uses reference though.

[Amit Dutta]

dude....that's a basic beginner misconception.   The "purist" approach of "unless I am drawing everything out of my head it's not as good", is just plain silly. Nobody gives a crap if you used reference or not, they care about the outcome.
Dave uses reference. Every artist in the world who does this stuff uses reference.
You only have the luxury of being able to not use reference when you've done a billion drawings in the past to build your knowledge using reference.  How can you draw something correctly if you haven't looked at the thing and studied it properly?

Or you can not use reference and take two or three times as long to get better. The choice is yours of course.

[Zipfelzeus]

Sorry to basically stomp in as well but I just want to make it absolutely clear just how common reference and how NECESSARY it is.

Literally all master paintings you ever saw were not done from imagination. Here are some pieces from Mucha for example.



Cornwell (famous illustrator) basically had a whole crew of people pose for his illustration:
Cornwell's Studio

Ever seen this piece?


Just becaue you use reference doesn't also mean you have to be a slave to your reference. It essential for an artist to learn how to use reference effectivley.
Norman Rockwell for example took fotos for his sketch series but exaggerated the proportions:


And Dave Rapoza basically does the same thing.


He poses himself, his friend Dan and his girlfriend. For his He-Man series he made clay sculps.


I know that sticking to close to reference can make your picture look unorganic and stiff but reference doesn't mean just copying. Reference is a tool to help you make great illustrations if you use it correctly. It provides information that your and everyone's poor brain just can't remember all the time.

Sorry for the long post. Regardless of what I said. Nice work on the piece.

[Tristan Berndt]

Zipfelzeus "Literally all master paintings you ever saw were not done from imagination"... Well, not really. Many artists, especially in the Peredvizhniki movement would frequently fill in large areas of their work with stuff that didn't exist. Repin probably being one of the most famous examples where many of his faces in his larger works never really existed. This isn't to say that he in no way didn't use reference, rather that being able to draw form one's imagination has always existed however it was done out of a necessity when other means weren't available (or in the case of Repin, for aesthetic reasons)

The examples of reference posted in this thread are very poor examples within the context of what's actually going on. If one wishes to develop the skills to be able to paint what does not exist, does it not make sense to isolate this challenge and dedicate one's time to solving the problems that appear without distractions? Read what genosgrande has said, he does this to weed out that which he does not know. He hasn't said this is portfolio work that will be used to get professional jobs, he hasn't said that all he cares about is the final product, rather it looks like this is an exercise in creating something from his imagination in order to learn something. So why do you guys jump down his throat about it? He hasn't dismissed the practice of using reference as a tool or that the study of reality is an important practice if one wishes to recreate it. He just wants to try his hand at something and you can't help yourself but preach "the one true way".

"If you don't use reference for your longer illustrations you're really just wasting your time struggling and the final result will definitely suffer" what if the extra time spent is to solve problems that otherwise wouldn't be solved by doing shorter paintings? I know that solving something on my own without reference has greatly helped me in the understanding of many subjects, even if the final image could have been better and been made faster with reference, the value exists in what is learned.

The response to someone just saying that in their imaginative work they'd prefer not to use reference is kinda fucked up. When did this become verboten?

[Amit Dutta]

@Tristan,

I'm sure genos can speak for himself if he feels hard done by in some way. ;)

[Zipfelzeus]

Zipfelzeus "Literally all master paintings you ever saw were not done from imagination"... Well, not really. Many artists, especially in the Peredvizhniki movement would frequently fill in large areas of their work with stuff that didn't exist. Repin probably being one of the most famous examples where many of his faces in his larger works never really existed. This isn't to say that he in no way didn't use reference, rather that being able to draw form one's imagination has always existed however it was done out of a necessity when other means weren't available (or in the case of Repin, for aesthetic reasons)

The examples of reference posted in this thread are very poor examples within the context of what's actually going on. If one wishes to develop the skills to be able to paint what does not exist, does it not make sense to isolate this challenge and dedicate one's time to solving the problems that appear without distractions? Read what genosgrande has said, he does this to weed out that which he does not know. He hasn't said this is portfolio work that will be used to get professional jobs, he hasn't said that all he cares about is the final product, rather it looks like this is an exercise in creating something from his imagination in order to learn something. So why do you guys jump down his throat about it? He hasn't dismissed the practice of using reference as a tool or that the study of reality is an important practice if one wishes to recreate it. He just wants to try his hand at something and you can't help yourself but preach "the one true way".

"If you don't use reference for your longer illustrations you're really just wasting your time struggling and the final result will definitely suffer" what if the extra time spent is to solve problems that otherwise wouldn't be solved by doing shorter paintings? I know that solving something on my own without reference has greatly helped me in the understanding of many subjects, even if the final image could have been better and been made faster with reference, the value exists in what is learned.

The response to someone just saying that in their imaginative work they'd prefer not to use reference is kinda fucked up. When did this become verboten?

Please Tristan don't jump to conclusions here. If the OP wishes to do this painting completely from imagination
that no issue for me. If he wishes to do 20 more paintings completely from imagination that is fine too

I made this post purely out of worry that the user didn't really understand that reference doesn't necessarly mean
"copy things exactly from a photo because you can't get them right."

Reference can sometimes provide just small pieces of information that are important. Which is what I was getting at.
Repin for example did studies of models before his pieces and then included them. (http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.de/2016/03...ssion.html)

I do have to say that my statment: "Literally all master paintings you ever saw were not done from imagination" is not correct or at least not how I meant it. Of course a lot of work including the scene and faces are done somewhat from imagination but there is most of the time a lot of preparation and study reference done beforehand. Which I think is so rarely discussed. I sometimes get the feeling that "reference" comes purely down to "looking up a photo when I can not get it right"
Which I'm trying to debunk here.

And I'm sorry if I put this assumption in genosgrande mouth. I do think genos know  that reference is important just
the sentences like:  "I heard Dave rarely uses reference though." (Which isn't really true, he uses some sort of reference
all the time. Im one of his latest streams he painted a pig monster and he had some sort of pig thing in his room serving as
"reference") "I just don't want to become reliant on figures."
made me feel that he somehow viewed reference as something of a crutch.

Sorry again genos. My post was not meant to talk down on you or in any way a attack on your current painting.
I wanted to show you that for large illustrations with complex compositions, providing the right amount of reference
is an important step of the planing process and that since ages. Even if certain painters and movements choose to do
more painting from imagination. (But in someway I'm sure you knew that already)

I know that this piece isn't your great master piece of ages but just a piece you're doing fore september it's just:

You see there is this thing lingering around that reference is somehow "cheating" because you didn't make this yourself.
And I think it still hold true for some of people, especially beginners.
I didn't jump on your thread to lecture you specifically. I just saw the oppertunity here to make a post about the
importance and complexity of using reference and the creativity that can come from finding the right reference. For example:
For Dave's Shredder piece, he put cardboard in front of his face and made a photo of himself :D
Master Dave Cardboard Face

Again sorry for derailing your thread. And again this was not meant to be "OMG this stupid user doesn't know how to use
reference ahah what an art n00b" Which I never meant to imply. You see people like hearing themselves talk especially on
the internet and especially when they think they have something smart to say. Which I am no exception of. I just felt
inspired to make a post about reference use yesterday night, because it's something I struggled with in the past. And as a
human being we like to project our insecurities on to other people.

I hope this makes my post intentions a bit more clear.

[Lodratio]

Since this thread has been derailed already, some more thoughts on reference: Though you might think that there's finished paintings in your head, that are just waiting to be transferred onto a canvas, the reality is that you're missing a lot of information about the things you are trying to do, and to learn that new information you need to study from life.
In that sense, relying on reference for everything you do can be seen as a shortcut, because you can copy a lot of 'correct' information, without even knowing what it is, or why what you are doing works, which means that it allows you to create something finished even if you don't have a lot of knowledge about the subject.
However, this attitude can also make you oblivious to your own lack of insight, and since you're never forced to learn the forms of what you are drawing/painting, or the way the lighting situation changes in different areas of a space and the way that would affect what an object you place in it looks like depending on where you place it, you won't be able to do those things, which limits you immensely.
Imo, if you don't want your range as an artist to be limited by the reference you are able to find, you have to strike a balance between learning how to do the things that are most universally useful for your work from imagination and incorporating reference into it for those aspects that don't play a big role for it.

[Zipfelzeus]

Sorry for now going completely off the rails here. (Kill me moderators) but I do remember one artist who really does all from imagination and not only that but also without any beforehand sketching.

I'm of course talking about "Kim Jung Gi"

I looked up his interview and he says:

JE:
How did you train to be so good at drawing everything? Seems like you have no limits.

KMG:
The difference between me and most other artist is that other artist try to draw things from looking at reference and copying what they see. I try to look at live objects and study them in front of me. I draw from real life. By doing that I become more capable of remembering them afterwards.
Ever since I was little, when I watched movies I would go back in my mind and draw what I remembered and what I liked from the movie, as an interpretation of the movie or a comment, if you like.
I have a very good memory.

So just to be fair. There is totally a way.... with like really intense memory training. So if you're aiming for that. Go ahead. I just personally think Kim is a magician hahaha.

Anyway there a tons of ways to do things! Just try out what works for you :)

Okay enough now! Sorry we abused your poor thread.

[genosgrande]

Oh man, there are a lot of replies about this lol. I misunderstood what I heard about Dave. Sorry about that. I don't think using reference is bad it's just that I eventually want to do something like KJG. I don't really like using it for my own works and right now I'm still in a learning stage so what I do is a lot of the time just testing/practicing. I'll probably need it if I actually have to do something professionally in the future or a lot more realistically but I want to push myself to be able to draw as much as I can without referencing at all. Sorry for starting this argument about reference :S

Btw, don't worry about offending me about anything Zip!

[Ambiguity]

I heard Dave rarely uses reference though.

To be fair, he did actually hear this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4BtCbrv....be&t=9380
"I don't really reference anything, I try to keep it all from my imagination" - Dave Rapoza, Level Up! Session 43

"I don't like to use reference that much for these images because I like to go and try and find like a more cartoony, maybe like in between feel. Just what's in my head, I don't want to be bound by the reference image. So, I'll keep working until I hit a wall and if I absolutely need to reference something for whatever reason, like maybe like gross teeth or something, then I will....but I want to get as much as myself in this as possible." - Dave Rapoza, Bog Witch Tutorial Part 2 

Keywords in those quotes are "don't really" and "that much", he didn't say he never references, and neither did genos. Incidentally, I've also heard Wesley Burt and Karla Ortiz express similar sentiments to the latter quote(actually she said she learned it from the Massive Black guys). All of them are advocates for studying from life, photos, and master works however, so in a sense you're always at the very least mental referencing(although I consider this to be different from what artists like Rockwell were doing).

[Amit Dutta]

@genos: I'm pretty sure nobody here is advocating a carte blanche method or approach, I know I wasn't meaning it in that way.
That quote of Dave's is what I meant when going to ref when struggling in an illustration "I'll keep working until I hit a wall and if I absolutely need to reference something for whatever reason, then I will". Keep in mind he has a large amount of mileage and study from observation under his belt already so he can get further and go longer without needing ref. You were hitting a wall when I talked to you and getting frustrated by it, hence my suggestion.

Just do your own thing and find your own way. Just because Dave or anyone else for that matter says something doesn't mean it will work for you. In some way or other, reference in the broadest sense of the word (drawing informed from some form of observation) whether for inspiration or for analysis or to get over sticking points is an essential part of the equation at some time unless you are a gifted savant.
And don't feel bad, discussion is good. :)