im not really sure, your comment in my sb got me thinking alot about camera angles, so id say do what feels best right now, i gotta do some more research myself ;)
At first I too had the impression that the rotation messed up the foreshortening. Now I wonder if that was just a temporary effect of switching from one view to the other. In photography terms this would correspond to a simple rotation of the camera, would this change the perspective? I'm not sure. I don't have many comments at this point of the WIP except that I like how you colored the woman's cape and I look forward to seeing the next stage!
My take on cartoon is that to make good cartoon you need to know everything about realism plus how to apply the knowledge to distorted shapes that we don't see in real life. How to shade this huge nose, what shadow will it cast onto the cheek or chin? How to keep this exaggerated leg movement recognizable as what it is in real life to a general public at a spontaneous level? What mental pathways connect the abstract to the immediate perception? The fact that you find cartoon easier may mean that you know more than you realize and you're beyond realism in your subconscious?
(10-12-2019, 06:09 AM)Fedodika Wrote: im not really sure, your comment in my sb got me thinking alot about camera angles, so id say do what feels best right now, i gotta do some more research myself ;)
Oh, I hope it was okay for me to comment your SB in such a way, now I feel uneasy. I just wanted to be as straightly honest as I thought I should! Maybe a softer hand next time? It's quite easy to check this stuff! I learn most from: https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/perspect1.html
And also looking at artists that do those extreme action shots? Line in some manga/anime or people who draw multiple perspectives views inside a frame? Those who really play around. I hope you find what you are looking for!
(10-12-2019, 09:33 AM)Leo Ki Wrote: At first I too had the impression that the rotation messed up the foreshortening. Now I wonder if that was just a temporary effect of switching from one view to the other. In photography terms this would correspond to a simple rotation of the camera, would this change the perspective? I'm not sure. I don't have many comments at this point of the WIP except that I like how you colored the woman's cape and I look forward to seeing the next stage!
My take on cartoon is that to make good cartoon you need to know everything about realism plus how to apply the knowledge to distorted shapes that we don't see in real life. How to shade this huge nose, what shadow will it cast onto the cheek or chin? How to keep this exaggerated leg movement recognizable as what it is in real life to a general public at a spontaneous level? What mental pathways connect the abstract to the immediate perception? The fact that you find cartoon easier may mean that you know more than you realize and you're beyond realism in your subconscious?
Well the thing is that, we aren't rotating the camera, we are rotating the world! This is powerful stuff. Ha. I dunno, I'm not a true expert but my reasoning is that when you define a perspective our heads want to keep the horizon leveled at all times, else we are falling sideways, so turning the world and keeping our heads levels creates all kinds of confusing information. There's probably a way to make things match but to me, as I see it on here, it would require to squash/stretch the rotated view, or tilt my head to match the horizon lol. A better explanation should be done by an actual mathematician lol, no clue.
Well, I though so too but, you know, two things came to my mind that I heard from experts. One were people who do animation at japan, where they said sometimes, you need to change the shadow direction on a nose or other feature on a character face (so fake it, go against the actual shadowing of the scene or body) because else it looks worse, than if you do it incorrectly. Another is on the Animators Survival Kit, I think it was Art Babbitt? Don't remember but, he would do a character walk, and in a few frames? He would twist the leg inside the body! Crazy, breaking it, then turning back out and make it match the normal walk. And this, which goes against all anatomy that we know, would look just fine, and give personality to a character. So, truth is, abstraction goes beyond reality, to points that sometimes you can and will want to do, something that goes against any reason, because it creates the illusion that something is way more appealing that it would be otherwise, or more interesting. Reality, and how we perceive reality in our minds, are two different things to study. You have no safety net when you go crazy and want results! So that's why is way trickier.
It's not I find it easier, but more comfortable? Like, I'm engaged, possibilities? I think is a sense and drive of wonder. Realism, I want to master it if I can, but, what's real is fixed. What's in your head, is forever changing. That really just blows my mind! Ha.
no need to feel uneasy my dude, i appreciate the write up, and theres no need to soft ball me lol. I just gotta crack down on some perspective stuff because youre right its something i havent spent enough time on and i gotta investigate it more :)
Leaving my weekly page, a bag of mixed feelings. Whenever I stick for that long with something I end up dragging things out and losing track of other things ha, also overworking or not working enough certain areas! I'm disappointed with myself about it but onwards and do better next time. On a bright note I feel I'm doing better at colors, so maybe doing little flowers studies are helping, or I'm just still clueless and can't tell anything anymore! Ha... sad.
Really liking your sketchbook! I can't really give you any pointers, your light-years from me hah. I really liked your cartoon animal sketches (wips?) from your first page. An I agree with Leo Ki, your style feels like its merging the caricature/exaggeration with realism and the effect is really cool.
On your latest post, I can see you've added a bit more background colour. Again I really can't offer any good advice, just what feels off to me. The colours feel a little muddy, I think its the red atmosphere (not sure if that's right.) Although im looking at it now and I'm not so sure. Feels like the cape is close to being lost. Again though I really don't know anything so feel free to ignore me ha!
Other than that I really look forward to seeing more of your work!
I like the colors, but some of the tones are really strong in some places... remember strong color draws the eye, and if all there is is strong color, theres less contrast. Like you have the cape bright red and the claw mark bright purple, and then the background has a lot of saturation. my reccomendation is take a colorize layer, take a cool tone and brush it over some things like the lower part of the male figure, or maybe even the top and try to balance the temperature. I did a painting a while back with a similar color mistake where it was all too strong, here it is and a few other examples to show you that oversaturation can kill the focus
Really liking your sketchbook! I can't really give you any pointers, your light-years from me hah. I really liked your cartoon animal sketches (wips?) from your first page. An I agree with Leo Ki, your style feels like its merging the caricature/exaggeration with realism and the effect is really cool.
On your latest post, I can see you've added a bit more background colour. Again I really can't offer any good advice, just what feels off to me. The colours feel a little muddy, I think its the red atmosphere (not sure if that's right.) Although im looking at it now and I'm not so sure. Feels like the cape is close to being lost. Again though I really don't know anything so feel free to ignore me ha!
Other than that I really look forward to seeing more of your work!
Heya! Thanks for the comment! Muddy colors refer more to when you mix a palette so much that you get browns, so you lose the colors! Ha, comes from oil mixing? I forgot. But I think I get what you mean? Like the red glow at the top is merging with the red cape. Not sure if there are any other areas you feel is happening also? Well, you being new just means you may not have the technical jargon down to rights but you still can judge what you like and not like! so it's always useful! Many thanks.
I went to look for your SB and is it not up yet!? Go draw something! Ha, I'll be on the lookout if I can be of any help, let me know.
(10-14-2019, 08:33 AM)Fedodika Wrote: I like the colors, but some of the tones are really strong in some places... remember strong color draws the eye, and if all there is is strong color, theres less contrast. Like you have the cape bright red and the claw mark bright purple, and then the background has a lot of saturation. my reccomendation is take a colorize layer, take a cool tone and brush it over some things like the lower part of the male figure, or maybe even the top and try to balance the temperature. I did a painting a while back with a similar color mistake where it was all too strong, here it is and a few other examples to show you that oversaturation can kill the focus
I did push the saturation overall thinking this is what people recommend when you go for a comic book style, vibrant colors appeal to younger audiences, but I really have no experience with it so I'm pretty much in the dark. Ha.
I checked the early things you did and linked me, and to me they don't look overly vibrant but rather washed out, I feel you went overboard with white and had no middle tones on those! Also the blacks don't feel like blacks. But I feel you are telling me a different thing with the comment about mine? In any case, this always troubles me because I'm not sure if I have my stuff well calibrated, I try to check a picture on different devices to see that it mostly feels alike. But not sure how are you seeing it on your end?
If it's not much to ask, could you do the color adjustment change and send it over? That way I can see what you feel it should look like on my end. I did a quick color balance for the background and took away the top glow, see if it feels different, I think getting rid of the glow keeps the focal points on the characters more, but the background I'm not too sure, I feel like washed out gave more depth. Adding blue to the guy, I don't think it would work well with the ambient light I imagine. I'm going for a night sort of feel? So cooler light, warmer shadows. But I have this warm glow at the top that is adding some warmth to the light mainly, as reflectivity? That was my thinking anyhow!
I also feel the changes might have been too subtle lol, I need a stronger hand.
Thanks again for the comments!
Hey, Rotohail. Great sketchbook you have so far. Keep it up.
I just want to quickly piggy back on what Fedo said and add that it's not only the saturation that is making the image jarring, but the sheer amount of different colours you are using. The characters are great, but what really gets me is how many colours are in the background/fog. You have bright characters, but also the background has red, green, blue, purple and orange. Let your characters sing more and have them be the focus, not the background.
Sure bro, most of what i did here was take a colorize layer with blue and just knocked down the saturation. It makes things grayer, which looks less jarring. You dont need overblown colors to appeal to a cartoon market,
This is a fine example, looks fun and kid friendly but the colors are dialed back, good shape and value carries the design. Also try to isolate the silhouette more, since your figures are dark, use that wisely to sculpt the background with lighter tones so they read better
(10-14-2019, 05:33 PM)chubby_cat Wrote: Hey, Rotohail. Great sketchbook you have so far. Keep it up.
I just want to quickly piggy back on what Fedo said and add that it's not only the saturation that is making the image jarring, but the sheer amount of different colours you are using. The characters are great, but what really gets me is how many colours are in the background/fog. You have bright characters, but also the background has red, green, blue, purple and orange. Let your characters sing more and have them be the focus, not the background.
Hope that helps!
Heya! Thanks for the comment! I toned down the background to more grays, and shifted the hue, let me know if it feels any better. Edited the original page post.
(10-14-2019, 10:36 PM)Fedodika Wrote: Sure bro, most of what i did here was take a colorize layer with blue and just knocked down the saturation. It makes things grayer, which looks less jarring. You dont need overblown colors to appeal to a cartoon market,
This is a fine example, looks fun and kid friendly but the colors are dialed back, good shape and value carries the design. Also try to isolate the silhouette more, since your figures are dark, use that wisely to sculpt the background with lighter tones so they read better
Whoa! Well I really like the look now, more gritty, dramatic and has a sort of cloud/rain vibe, I do like the top side without as much red. I did a bunch of color balance and hue shifts, trying to match a bit what you have but still keep a bit of the original warmer light from the top, it might be a tad colder now than I hoped but maybe it looks better overall? edited the main post. Many thanks!
I also checked that artstation you linked, gonna have to study that one, I love it.
Looks like I missed a few edits. It's a bit of a pity that you edited the image in your older post, you and the readers are being denied the advantage of this forum: the ability to see the evolution of a WIP and connect the comments to the various stages of it. Gallery platforms don't have that.
I need to gather my thoughts about the colors, because it's a rabbit hole, and will post them tomorrow. Same about your interesting thoughts about camera rotation and cartoon spirit.
Colors: Yup, realistic colors rarely look good, neither do all-saturated colors. On a previous stage when I commented on the colors of the cape I was envisioning something like having only two saturated elements on the picture: 1. The cape and 2. the scratching/carving effects on the wall and/or the hand. They are more or less diagonal opposites across the wall line.
What do you plan for the background? (Ground and horizon.) I think you should definitely reintroduce some (blurred or faded) details for the dizziness effect.
You have a point with taking that choice away. Hmm, well this ones there's still left overs so is not as hard to see the progress. I mainly just used Fedodika suggestion for the changes, so there's not that much process on this one. I'll keep it in mind for others.
That's an interesting point, having only those two things very saturated. I could tone down the characters body colors and had gone for that. For next time then.
I was planning on doing something industrial, cranes, warehouses, but then I thought adding some woods as in looking from atop an outskirts building, at the end I ended up with jack and since I wanted to try blurring the background I gave it the middle finger. Ha! No!! I need to stop hiding away from doing backgrounds! So yeah, that was my ordeal.
Leaving my next page WIP, I probably gonna kill this one fast, Move onto trying maybe one of the compositions I did above, or I may try a few more ideas if I can. Also color the girl side view.
i think the colored one has the same color issues and the rythm of the image is concave as in the energy is slamming into one place. Id either push it like all the way, or try a totally different rythm. Also the colors are way too strong again, hot purple against hot orange; use hues to compliment each other, not to compete for attention.
Like if we painted a red starcraft marine, his red suit would dominate the image if we werent careful with our values and hues. Id take his suit and put most of it in a cool shadow, it'd still read as a "red" object but would be a lot easier on the eyes.
(10-17-2019, 05:59 AM)Fedodika Wrote: i think the colored one has the same color issues and the rythm of the image is concave as in the energy is slamming into one place. Id either push it like all the way, or try a totally different rythm. Also the colors are way too strong again, hot purple against hot orange; use hues to compliment each other, not to compete for attention.
Like if we painted a red starcraft marine, his red suit would dominate the image if we werent careful with our values and hues. Id take his suit and put most of it in a cool shadow, it'd still read as a "red" object but would be a lot easier on the eyes.
Thanks for the comment! As before anything you would like to change, do redlines or what not, feel free to do. I get better the idea like that. I'm interested on what you mention about the rhythm/slamming concave, I haven't thought much on that, if you can do a flow/redline of what you mean is not working I'll take a look asap.
I think I get what you mean with the marine example. I toned down the yellow bits so they don't steal as much the show. Originally I wasn't going for purple but dark grey, black. But I stumbled upon purple while doing some color checks and liked it.
Thanks for the suggestion on the pose, is a good idea, I wanted to make her fee like she was going to start a step or a slow walk forward. I changed the foot a bit but it might not read too well. I'm kind of messing it with the color again, ha. The struggle is real. I saw you put up a perspective thing! I'll leave you a comment later.
Update on my current page, gonna move onto another.
its something i picked up from Steve Huston and Mattessi, if you have 2 lines colliding into one another it breaks motion, and it shows the motion will like slam into the other. Thats fine if the image is crafted that way but yours just feels weird with this flow of energy. The red thing on the left is almost straight (plain diagonal) and isnt curving like the purple thing, so it breaks that slamming motion. Also just pushed the sass up in the profile girl, arch the back more, it looks more confident and assertive. And dialing back the colors, again with just a dull blue on a colorize layer, makes it much easier on the eyes. See how much you can pull out saturation wise, once you throw all the strong colors in.
Strong color looks strong based on what its surrounded by, greys are your friend ;)
Those skulls!!! XD How you distorted the structure into facial expressions, that's gold!
Regarding magic effects and saturation, you don't need to saturate the whole effect. Look for instance at a spotlight in the fog or smoke - you get an overall coloring, but highlights (and saturation) only in some strategic places. In the high angle scene I would saturate the hand and sword, the eye pupils of the attackers, and make the background much darker.
The profile scene might look stronger if only the arm and weapon were full profile while she was facing the camera a bit more. Holding a sword perpendicular to the chest is not a powerful stance (you can't really thrust the blade like that), unless she is confident that there is no immediate danger - which the relaxed shield on the side seems to indicate.
Regarding the music stage scene, I would love to see it with spotlights in the dark - challenge! ;)
@Fedodika @Leo Ki
Heya! Thanks again for both your comments. I did this time try to keep the grays focused on the background, I wanted to see if I could pull those kinds of magical effects with a lighter time of day setting? Or Overcast. Because with dark backgrounds they stand out easy enough. I see the color change Fedodika but this time it feels really dull, all the energy is lost, from the left side mostly. It's like the difference of seeing a black&white picture or a color one, you know that feeling? Like the emotion is drained from it.
So I had never thought about those flow lines you mention and now that I see, I think to me the white&red entity is balancing the other, like it has that opposing curve you mention. Not sure what is making you see a straight vertical? Maybe the puddles below are skewing things? I feel that clashing works with the theme I had in mind. She's kind of struggling to keep them in line? Like they want out! Ha, and it's a battle of wills. So there's that confluence of everything struggling outwards but being bent onto the center, like bending iron bars!
So the side pose comes more from making someone threatening. When you turn your torso, which is a thing done in combat quite a bit, is more for defense, you can deflect attacks easier that way, it means business! But also means you aren't confident. Take a different view, when someone stands straight, tall, and rigid, it makes you tense up. They are blocking you, looking down on you, they know you mean nothing, and that is what I wanted her to do, she's out of herself, power rushing so it should be intimidating. That's also why I feel laying her back or turning her would work as well, I think rigid works better for the visual read about the emotions at play.
I hope this sort of explains a bit more what I was feeling, because while I do this I never really think of it, I just have the image in my head and later on, after I check it back again I can reason those little things. So I'm clueless most of the time! Ha.
Leo Ki, I'm glad you liked the skulls also! Ha, I've been thinking lately I need to work a bit my expressiveness on objects like those, visual language, is always in my mind but I rarely try so seeing that they work for you makes me really glad! The music scene I would say, it crossed my mind to go all dark and have single spotlights for them, so it's a very nice idea. I just didn't know if I would be able to make it work, but I'm gonna be on the look out for something like that because in my mind I seem to remember seeing something like that somewhere. Memory is tricky that way.
Gotta join the bandwagon and say I love those skulls!
I think your use of colour is interesting, but I also think it could be done a touch more effectively where you make certain portions of the image pop with colour, and leave some places where the eye can relax. What is interesting is if you colour pick your latest image (the one with the red and purple skulls/demons) it's very saturated, but the value read itself isn't actually strong. Proof Colors if your using PS, zoom out and have a look at it in greyscale. Does it read clearly? Can you still see what's going on?
I adore your images because they are a lot of fun to look at, but my main advice is just experiment with colour (or lack of saturation, in this case) and see how far you can push things while still maintaining the essence of you.
I know the style is far from realistic, but don't forget to carry the intense lighting to all reflective surfaces. She's got a red titty but what about the other one? Considering how purple and bright her hands are, she should probably have a purple titty too :)
