Technical Questions that come up over time (Characters, Landscapes and more)

[Pensword]

While trying new stuff questions come up about how to do this thing or that thing.
Since there are many people with a lot of good experience here, I would like to ask those questions in this thread.
And since I dont want to open 100 Threads for several questions, I intend to ask them always in this thread.


Here is my first topic and question:

How do I create a 3d-Space, in which I then can place buildings and mountains?
A landscape that is made up of many Hills and Mountains can have Floor everywhere on each Axis (x,y,z - axis).
It is not a cube that I am drawing, where I know exactly where in 3d-space does the line of the border have to be.
But the lines really could be anywhere!

I want to show pictures for better understanding, what I intend to do and what I mean:

This Artist did it very nicely and what he did here, is way above my skill right now.
We are seeing a hill-Landscape from above. But floor is everywhere! But at every random point you also could raise the floor a little bit or lower the floor a little bit. You also can just put down no line at random places, which also reads as floor!
So how do I know, where to place lines? How to create such a 3d-space?




Here is a nice illustration-style that I would like in the end (in this case it could be way more clear where to put some of the border-lines, because it is not so much from very above).




And here you see an example of a building (which is a harbour-warehouse, built in the Game Minecraft), which I would like to place in such a 3d-Landscape like on the first picture.
(so creating a 3d-space from above, than placing this building inside the 3d-mountain-area from above)

[Noone]

It's all perspective based. You may not be specifically plotting a 3d cube on an xyz axis, but every object has a basic simplified bounding box which can be placed in perspective (sides, front, top/bottom). Placing planes in space requires this basic understanding, be it intuitively done to look "correct", or meticulously mapped out with grids and so on.

There is obvious benefit to learning perspective with exercises of course and plotting out perspective and drawing in a very technical way, especially at first, but then it is good to attempt to intuitively paint or draw with a basic perspective in mind. I find, for landscapes especially, setting a basic perspective grid first (2, 3pt etc) is always helpful to allow you to keep in mind and potentially use to troubleshoot things when the intuitive placement isn't working.  If you are reverse engineering a perspective view to add another object,  map out the grid of the scene, then add your object using it's basic bounding box. It can get much more complex if you want to learn how to exactly map objects. Scott Robertson has a book called How to Draw that delves into all the technical aspects, but it is dry and overly technical in many ways especially as it advances, if you aren't doing specific industrial design type work. Link here to preview it https://archive.org/details/how-to-draw-...0/mode/1up

Many people swear by using 3d programs to visualise basic planes and objects, as you can move the camera around and is actually quite a good thing to do, simply to learn, if you are less on the side of being able to intuitively visualise things in a 3d space. Practice drawing things from reference in many perspectives to build up your intuitive understanding. Draw from life, as well.  It will all come down to practicing what you want to be able to do.

[darktiste]

So what your asking is basically if i am understand you is how do i construct on a uneven surface

Well you could draw the house first but in that case you would be missing a lot of the detail of the terrain which determine what behind and what in front in term of perspective. You would also be missing alot of the proportional cue that help determine if the building is the right size. The easiest way to determine a complex subject is a box or a collection of box to plot the proportion first and then from those box create more complex construction within the bounding box. Personally i don't have much experience with such complex environment but from what i have gather about how other artist process and and what seem logical is doing simple box first to establish proportion but first you draw the terrain ruffly to determine WHAT overlapping WHAT this will save a lot of time if you know what you are doing.

What they are basically doing is using parallel line as guide by creating set of parallel line you start to have ''guideline'' that goes toward the vanishing point those line are ''reference'' that help you construct any form regardless of the perspective. You also have to find the ground plane otherwise you won't be able to determine how the terrain ''intersect'' with the building. This is more difficult on organic shape because this is no longer a very predictable plane on which you construct and it involve more complex intersection specially when done over rounded surface.

Here a demo i think will help you understand uphill perspective if that what i understand your referring to i personally refer to it as uneven terrain from a low or top down view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQUwhd_t6vs

My advise regarding everything perspective is to get Scott robertson book-
Drawing and sketching from imagination with scott robertson.


I also given you an example of a house build on what seem to be a uneven terrain. Note i say seem because if there an overlap you don't necessarily know how the terrain is behind that obscuring shape nor doesn't it matter much if it on a flat or uneven surface (unless you are thinking about physic) because what matter is do we see or not the form intersecting. What matter primarily the order of form overlapping since it hide what behind itself (sometime you have many overlapping form so understand the order of what in the foreground vs background also matter to determine what hide what).One other concern is does that overlap hide the intersection of the ground plane of that object partially or completely. If it partially that where the trouble begin. Because now you have to deal with overlap and intersecting form.

Sadly i can't give you a very in depth explanation it come to down understanding construction method and grind and perspective theory that are often badly documented because it somewhat very case specific.What matter is understanding the rule so that once a specific scenario arrive you can use those fundamental to overcome the perspective challenge.

Also note if you wonder why there many set of line those are use to establish proportion (generally 6 feet) between 2 line.Understanding how to measure in perspective become even more important when you understand you can accurately refer back to the height of a door anywhere in a scene if you know how to as your ''unit'' of porportion since most scene will be empty until you add character so it good to have a door somewhere early in the process to keep track of propotion inside the scene.

[JosephCow]

If you wanna give this a try in a quick sketch, that might help to figure out the specific issue. There's a lot answered by darktiste and Noone, but not sure if it's specifically what you're asking? Cuz yeah, it's all just perspective problems. At the end of the day though where the base of the building intersects with your terrain, is entirely up to your discretion. You just need to define for yourself where that occurs. I like to sketch gridlines so that it kind of defines the blank areas and makes me thing of a 3D mesh.

So I would start with defining your viewing angle for the scene, and blocking out the environment with big blocks in perspective. This is where you define your different ground levels. Then just pick a ground level and that's where the harbor building sits. Or if you know kind of how you want the building to look, you could start with that, and then build terrain around it.

[Pensword]

it is good to attempt to intuitively paint or draw with a basic perspective in mind. I find, for landscapes especially, setting a basic perspective grid first (2, 3pt etc)


Scott Robertson has a book called How to Draw

So what your asking is basically if i am understand you is how do i construct on a uneven surface


My advise regarding everything perspective is to get Scott robertson book-
Drawing and sketching from imagination with scott robertson.

If you wanna give this a try in a quick sketch, that might help to figure out the specific issue. There's a lot answered by darktiste and Noone, but not sure if it's specifically what you're asking? Cuz yeah, it's all just perspective problems. 

I like to sketch gridlines so that it kind of defines the blank areas and makes me thing of a 3D mesh.

So I would start with defining your viewing angle for the scene, and blocking out the environment with big blocks in perspective. This is where you define your different ground levels.

The question is not so much "how do i construct on a uneven surface?", but
"how do i construct an uneven surface?"

Several times it was mentioned to make a perspective Grid and to establish all the perspective, perspective Grid, 3d-mesh.
This is what I would like to see, I assume.

I have Scott Robertsons How to draw (the other one I have not).
But I find it very very hard to learn with it, because it is so much easier, seeing somebody do it and intuitively understand what he did and then do it, instead of seeing texts in a book and trying to find out what he means.



Let us stay with the first picture I showed in the Thread.
Lets say I want to make something like that.

First of all, its Birds Eye View, so I think we have no Horizon Line.
Everything on the picture is the ground plane.
Now I drew a perfectly flat groundplane, thats no Issue.
How do I now add Hills and Mountains and maybe how do I make a correct perspective grid, 3d-mesh and so on and do those even help with constructing a "hilly" Area?

[Pensword]

Question 2 - Designing a whole Scenery:



I like to use the game Minecraft and combine it with drawing, because you can sketch it out on paper and if you like it,
build it and look at it in 3d. Also Perspective can be trained in Minecraft.

If most untrained people make a house in Minecraft, it might look ugly, like here




But I have seen People, who seem to use heavily Design-Principles, so that their Houses look just amazing! Like here




Of course on the internet you can find videos about how to design in Minecraft, but on this forum, maybe people know
the design principles for buildings and cities and city-sceneries without it being specifically about Minecraft
(but still applicable to the game also).

I would like to design Houses, that can be changed in color to fit into different surroundings.
For example, I already posted this harbour-warehouse.




In this picture it is surrounded by green gras and it looks very good.
But if I wanted to place this building into a desert, which is red and looks like this:




What parts of the building should I change? Which materials/Colors should I use, so the building looks still the same,
but fits better into the new (color-)surrounding?

I am thinking of this a bit like in the old Warcraft3-Game.
Two Players could both play the Humans. But one of them is the "red player" and the other is the "blue player".
They get the exact same set of buildings, but only small Parts are colored differently.




Depending on which color you choose as a Player, the buildings are slightly changed. Green,Yellow,Purple was all possible also.


Also I found this Harbour-scenery, that one Person on the Internet made and it looks amazing.




Of course I would not ever want to just copy the exact scenery, thats boring!
I want to design (in this case) my own Medieval-Harbour-Scenery.

How do I know where to place which Building and what Roof-Color to give it, so that the whole scenery looks hopefully amazing?
Which Roof should be made out of Copper, so it is green? Which Roof should be out of Bricks, so it is Red and which Roofs are
made of Wood, so they are brown?
Where to place a bigger Building, where to place a smaller one?



How to go about the whole Designing of such a scenery? (first on Paper, after that maybe inside the game)

[darktiste]

Why don't you just draw something .You have many question but doing is often finding the answers ... i understand that when we don't understand we seek for the answers but it not the answers that make use better artist it understand the road to the answers... why don't not try to get a better understand of fundamental. A hint learn about color and contrast and composition aswell as overlapping also if i can give you an advise go take a class on perspective so you can actually get hard question answers with example. It very hard to give good resource on perspective and most answers are best given with example because word just don't work well when trying to explaining that topic because of it technicality .

If you get to many question you are not drawing and that why you don't think about the answers on your own you are taking your attention away from the problem instead of trying to problem solve on your own your looking for someone else answers that not giving you room to get better at decision making. If you understand fundamental you don't ask as much question because you understand the way thing work. It not only by asking question that you get better it by understanding why you have ask the question in the first place that you find the answers an answers mean nothing if it abstract . The answers when it given to you is just a confirmation that you don't know. That why if you don't observe and test your understanding you will only rely on asking question but you don't have someone to help you at every step so you have to understand what you are trying to do and how to do it. It not just about how to do it but why a decision is better than an other.

Asking question is not bad. But we can't draw for you that why you need to take risk and sometime do trial and error. Thing don't always work out just because you think it work a certain way sometime we get bad information and need to test and sometime what is tried fail.

Learning on your own is difficult you have to be able to gather an understand how to build your understanding of what you are doing. The more you understand what you know and still have to learn the better you can look out for your own answers.

Lucky for you there the internet .So understanding the vocabulary and get you closer to a more tailored answers that will be not to far away with a bit of patience and research.

Why not draw the first house what about starting there?Don't shoot 10000 step a head we have zero information to know if you are even able to do that.To help someone you kinda have to make sure they have some understanding of concept and it there work that often show how much they understand something.