Man, drifter, looks like everyone is chomping at the bit to tell you all these different things you need to do.
With all this advice, wouldn't it seem reasonable that before one pursues one's studies in anatomy, perspective, construction and complicated methods of deconstructing drawing, one first get reasonably good at just drawing what one sees? Take something like anatomy, if you're having trouble drawing in proportion, having to juggle that alongside having to deduce a figure's underlying anatomy seems like you're just biting off more than you can chew. Same goes for construction, if you can't draw a figure well from looking at one, now you have to do that at the same time as you have to learn how to abstract it into a series of 3d objects and hopefully assemble them well enough to re-create the figure accurately.
I get that people like flashy stuff but maybe it's better to just learn how to draw what one sees accurately first. It seems reasonable to me but I appear to be in a minority opinion on this forum
Anyway, give it some thought, I don't mean to dictate how all drawing is to be done, just to try and balance out all the "modern" drawing advice with some more traditional thoughts on the matter.
(11-03-2019, 11:24 AM)Tristan Berndt Wrote: Man, drifter, looks like everyone is chomping at the bit to tell you all these different things you need to do.
With all this advice, wouldn't it seem reasonable that before one pursues one's studies in anatomy, perspective, construction and complicated methods of deconstructing drawing, one first get reasonably good at just drawing what one sees? Take something like anatomy, if you're having trouble drawing in proportion, having to juggle that alongside having to deduce a figure's underlying anatomy seems like you're just biting off more than you can chew. Same goes for construction, if you can't draw a figure well from looking at one, now you have to do that at the same time as you have to learn how to abstract it into a series of 3d objects and hopefully assemble them well enough to re-create the figure accurately.
I get that people like flashy stuff but maybe it's better to just learn how to draw what one sees accurately first. It seems reasonable to me but I appear to be in a minority opinion on this forum
Anyway, give it some thought, I don't mean to dictate how all drawing is to be done, just to try and balance out all the "modern" drawing advice with some more traditional thoughts on the matter.
I think you're 100% right. Drawing what you see accurately is the first step you take to becoming "proficient" at drawing in general. Having a good eye and accurate hand will take you farther than any other skill because how well you can draw or paint anything always comes back to that. Hell, just drawing things with correct proportions will make you seem good at drawing to most people.
I'd recommend focusing on building up that hand eye coordination - judging proportions and making accurate marks - which I would say is the core of all drawing, imaginative or from observation. The most efficient way to do that is to copy, copy and copy some more.
Then after you aren't struggling so much with the basic act of drawing with acceptable accuracy then you can far more easily tackle things like construction and anatomy that give you more knowledge and understanding of your subjects.
IRC in one of his video courses Steve Huston recommended beginners NOT to focus on anatomy too early, because its more important to capture the figure as a whole before getting too specific.
Observe,describe without drawing the quality of the line or a value or color your gonna put down,describe with your tool,Second observation,correction.Repeat until completion.
Observing is a really 2d thing and that where the trap is the artist must create the illusion of a 3d space within a 2d space.But when we ask the brain to copy thing he at ease. It almost natural to him but the minute you had proportion and perspective in the mix he out and he gonna fight you.What do i mean by all this is that you will have to try to avoid the natural pre disposition of the brain to be just a copy machine.You have to take control of how you observe thing you no longer observe passively you observe actively.This mean you need to start to talk to yourself internally sound strange right?It kinda is but without this inner dialogue you would be drawing in a really symbolistic way your brain would be overwriting how you really see thing in a almost childish way.To avoid copying you need to understand what fundamental create 3d.You will need to combine multiple fundamental to create the illusion of 3d space.The goal is to start to see object inside your head and be able to rotate them without this rotation you will be stuck observing and will not be able to do your own imaginative work.
(11-03-2019, 08:55 PM)darktiste Wrote: To avoid copying you need to understand what fundamental create 3d.You will need to combine multiple fundamental to create the illusion of 3d space.The goal is to start to see object inside your head and be able to rotate them without this rotation you will be stuck observing and will not be able to do your own imaginative work.
Tristan was saying pretty much the exact opposite. Do copy. He's right. This is why:
You can draw all the 3D constructions of forms you want, but you cannot be drawing the correct forms if they are the wrong size, or in the wrong place. So logically, you must be able to see where things are supposed to go, and what size to draw them first before constructing anything as a 3D form.
There is so much contrary advice in this sketchbook right now, that I almost don't want to add any more. But here we are.
Hey! I don't have anything to add to what everyone else has said, but I thought I would drop by and suggest checking out this resource for figure drawing references: https://vimeo.com/croquiscafe
It has lots of great poses, all with good lighting too!
Played with level to adjust the option to adjust the value
Played with light and shadow option to adjust the value
Here a few observation either you were working on dark model or the light was minimal or you didn't follow the right value but since you didn't bother showing the reference i could not determine.
Try to understand human skin as as a really soft feeling with soft transition except sometime where there overlapping element or bone showing up.
I recommend working on a grey background to avoid your dark being to dark.
I didn't touch the head or feet since i had no reference to work those area. since they overlap.
(11-05-2019, 11:16 AM)darktiste Wrote: Here how i would probably have done it.
So basically here a few key thing i done
Played with level to adjust the option to adjust the value
Played with light and shadow option to adjust the value
Here a few observation either you were working on dark model or the light was minimal or you didn't follow the right value but since you didn't bother showing the reference i could not determine.
Try to understand human skin as as a really soft feeling with soft transition except sometime where there overlapping element or bone showing up.
I recommend working on a grey background to avoid your dark being to dark.
I didn't touch the head or feet since i had no reference to work those area. since they overlap.
Sorry forgot to post the reference, it's from this video, the last 5 minute pose: https://vimeo.com/370433464
id still reccomend doing a longer study of one of these, and trying to draw it more and more correctly, mix that in with the quick studies, say like an hour a day on the same image, trying to observe deeper and correct proportions more and more.
Try flipping that image upside down and drawing while continuing to work on it to give yourself new eyes.
(11-06-2019, 06:40 AM)Fedodika Wrote: id still reccomend doing a longer study of one of these, and trying to draw it more and more correctly, mix that in with the quick studies, say like an hour a day on the same image, trying to observe deeper and correct proportions more and more.
Try flipping that image upside down and drawing while continuing to work on it to give yourself new eyes.
I would add up and say do a separate study of the leg your still have trouble capturing the right proportion and contour of the leg.Also try to capture the curvature of the shape don't just draw straight for convenience sake.Learn to see accurately before you try to exaggerate pose.
Try to look more into what is negative shape it will help you plot the outline of your form.Also it a great tool to learn to auto correct but you might leak the understanding how to right now if you not familiar with the program.But basicly all you have to do is overlay the copy image over the original and than turn down the opacity of the layers.To create a negative space try to visualize a triangle to simply it as much as possible if you not able to get the negative space super accurate it not that important what is important is being able to see the difference between the original and the copy.It hard to explain for me how to construct a negative shape to be as minimal and useful as possible but just to clarify a negative shape is everything expect your figure.Here i simplified the negative shape to the zone i saw that had the most issue.
Darktiste - thanks for the tip, it is a good idea to try to see the negative shapes to get better proportions.
Fedodika - I tried taking my time I think I took about 45 min to an hour on this, I didn't exactly time it. If you have any idea where to go from this point, let me know. How often should I spend this much time on a figure? It's not anywhere close to being done, I guess I'm just slow at drawing and measuring. There's still a lot wrong with it the more I look at it.
you have a nice reference, just start doing your best to make small observations and improve the image more and more to make it more and more like the reference. The head for instance is more tilted to the left in the reference... try to locate all the shadow shapes, like how is done in quick sketch, draw the outline of the shadow shapes and indicate how their edges are looking. keep it in grayscale to not get distracted. This should take way longer than 45 minutes.. id reccomend spending like a week at least, as many hours a day as you can exert, on just this picture.
As feng zhu once said "take as looong as yoou neeed to get quality" so get your transform tool out, your eraser, and use every trick you can think of to make this sketch look like the reference. everyday ask yourself... are these arms the right size? are these legs the right size? are all the negative spaces identical to the reference? The sooner you can accurately copy the reference the better everything else you makes becomes. So take your time and just keep working on it. If you like this photo, do it, if you want a reference that holds your attention more, do that. pick one you wouldnt mind looking at for a week slugging long hours to make it accurate
The foot in front is to large.The upper arm on the right inward part is simplified(to straight)and the outside part the angle are incorrect for how the forearm are situated.In the ref is foot and knee line up but in your they line up but not in a horizontal fashion like they should they line up diagonally.Don't just listen to what i make you observe go over and correct those region to get the feel of how the form change as you correct them.
I think me and fedo are going to make your observation jump so much you will be glad you listened.
One thing for sure is you manage to make him look like he balanced so that a good point.Also the proportion are 85% good i would say.
Worked on this a couple more hours today, surprisingly more fun than frustrating, just wanted to post an update in case anyone has advice with where I'm at. The thing that I notice the most about my image is it doesn't have the same weight or feeling of volume as the photo. Not sure whether I can fix that at my current skill level though, so I'll just keep trying to improve it as I go.
The problem with the volume is due to your figure leaking range of value.Black and white on a white background rarely ever give a sensation of volume.I won't go into why exactly right now.Right now value is not in my opinion your top priority.
If your still struggling with proportion and angle i would not advise to work on shadow that are soft yet.
Here what i suggest you practice primary first line quality, angle and proportion.Once those thing are well establish and you have receive feed back go and try to place the hard edge shadow.I suggest working in this way as to not overload you with step and to simply feedback into 2 section one being the accuracy stage(line quality,angle and proportion) and the second into value stage(just the hard edge shadow)
For example here you would have the leg cast shadow, the hand casting is shadow and the pit of the neck just to name those.Note that on one side of the pit of the neck the shadow transition is softer on the left and if you compare it harder on the right just indicate the left since it the harder one.
