IronSkeleton's sketches

[darktiste]

The secret to good box is converging vanishing line and long straight line and being able to visualize inside the form of an object by drawing through first .I recommend drawing plane first learning to develop the understanding of how to do grid and check like floor then you take the plane and you draw some plane over and under the horizon and then you add to those plane 4 verticale line going from each corner going up which is basically your base for a cube for 1 and 2 point perspective we ain't talking about 3d perspective visualization that bit advance perhaps for now.

A good box is like a house the foundation of the first line you put down is going to dictate how strong the box will be. So my advice to is to start simple drawing a box near the edge of the page starting with a vertical or an horizontal line according to the nearest similar guideline that exist outside of the drawing for example the frame of the page is a perfect guideline it not a line you draw in this case but the segment of the frame of the page that become a guideline.You can also always check how straight a line is by creating a square between a pair of vertical and horizontal intersecting as if you were measuring an angle since that basically what you are doing without a angle measuring tool.

So with that understanding we can measure and refer to frame of any page we draw on as guideline we decide what is the best first line we should make i personally believe a vertical is more natural to draw due to the nature of the range of movement of the wrist. The key is to choose a space where you can easily start to work your way inward and use your first cube itself as a guideline for future other object in the scene will remembering that you can always refer to the frame of the page for visual measuring.

Here an example of how it can be literally done but the intention is to visualize this at one point the number represent the cube that i judge to be near the easiest guideline to measure from. Obviously there also a other guideline i did not mention so far it the horizon line itself which is a very useful guideline obviously to measure in 1 point perspective but also in 2 point perspective this one give us as you might have figure out the a nice horizontal guideline that at the middle of the page HOW CONVINIENT!!!

The hardest thing is to decide where to put the first cube but just put one down and don't think to much about it your not doing anything that require planning until you actually create composition. What really require planning is how to get to shape that are far away from your guideline i refer to them as the middle shape is not that problematic since you have the horizon as a guide the most problematic shape are the shape that are toward the middle but not so close to the frame those require other shape for visual guideline. Think as each box as a guideline specially in 1 point perspective but also in 2 point perspective since you get vertical guideline created by the box.

That why you see me extend line from one shape to the other and also using the horizon instead of the frame of the page.

Anyway don't hesitate to ask me question if you got any.

[IronSkeleton09]

Thank you for your reply darktiste!

I think I understood what you meant, and you were right, extending a line from the corners of a page , makes it easier to see where every other line should go. I kind of have shaky lines, but I tried your exercise and it's interesting. If you notice anything wrong, please don't hesitate to comment!

[darktiste]

Just try what call ghosting the line it basically just making the movement before you actually commit to putting the pen down it basically visualizing the movement a bit like an athlete would do by ''practicing it swing'' also an other thing is don't be afraid to go light first and correct the line if necessary but i always encourage people to be more confident to much thinking is not always helpful if it get into your head...

Also you can try to draw the box as if it transparent and making every plane of the cube visible you get a bit more mileage that way.Also try to get different size of box like small medium and big one.

One other exercise is to try to place 2 cube in the same vanishing point you basically take the vanishing line and you place a box between the line that basically like drawing a ''bunch of house line up on the street'' you can also try to draw street just by having vanishing line going to the vanishing point.

Try drawing a city with long box for skyliner large box for commercial building and small box for house and some long flat box in a street for the car and if you want try to make bus train and other thing you can imagine with just box to simply the shape.You want to eventually be able to combine some box to create simple more complex construction.

For extra point try having object overlap one and other if you think you understand how space work.

[JosephCow]

Hey nice improvement! I feel like I'm seeing a lot of good boxes and 3D thinking happening. The skull proportions are also better.

As for drawing in boxes. Honestly I have trouble drawing a full human/skeleton in a box. It's not at all easy to do. For me, at least. But it is a good technique for drawing the boxy mannequin so that you can more easily use it as a guide to draw your figure. I would recommend using your box forms as practice. I can give you a couple pointers as to how to do it more accurately.

The hard part about the method is maintaining the proportions of your object in perspective. For this you need a 2D plan like you made with the noses. The second thing is that at least one point of your object has to actually be touching the edge of the box. I think that's the reason the noses worked so well, they are not only relatively simple forms but you had a plan, and the noses touch the box. Your 3D noses don't necessarily maintain the same shape and proportion as the side view noses, however. Your skeleton seen from high above was a little confused because there wasn't any part that was for sure touching the box, so it's easy to estimate wrong and make it look weird.

Anyway, basically you need to reproduce the 2D flat plan, as a 3D plane in space, then simply project it out to give it depth. I suggest, if nothing, else, at least divide you bounding boxes in half! Then at least you are keeping track of the biggest proportions. You know for example upper body is half the length of body, and legs the other half. So it would at least give you that general idea of how it would fit in a box if you were doing a figure. Dividing the plane basically just makes it easier to draw your side view in it. You could also just use perspective warp tool to fit it to your plane in perspective.

I mark all the points where it touches the side of the box, since these points, when the get into perspective are the givens. If it's touching the box, it's a fixed guideline. Where this method goes wrong is when nothing is actually touching the bounding box.

Hopefully this gives you an idea of how to proceed. With this example, it's really so simple, there's not much need for the method. But I think you can see how if we add a head form, and legs, it would look like a human, and then you'd be really close to drawing the figure at the crazy perspective of your choice. You could also plot some horizontal proportions on the front of the box too, for more accuracy. Or just wing it.

[darktiste]

What i would do first if you want to get anatomy to somewhat of a proportional level in perspective is to first construct the basic mannequin with box and then once you get that somewhat figure out you start to add in more notion of propotion but for that you need to understand how to find the middle of a plane how to relate to the ground plane and some other concept to accurately measure.

A good place to get those notion be better articulated then what i am right now is loomis book.

You can get a look at what thing would look down the line this is bit to complex i argue you would benefit as i said from learning how to do that most with box first to get the simply principle down.

Here you can look at 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=FupeKX4NQsQ

The problem with the example provided is that you don't really got to see the primitive form under the organic skin he it because he can visualize the form without needing to actually draw them but it encouraged to develop a sense of proportion.

Also the head sheet is also advance material it just provided for later i would not advise to try reproducing it right away.

[Jephyr]

You're getting some good advice about your studies so I'll just add a word of encouragement to keep working on the fundamentals of perspective and anatomy (as you are already doing). Please keep sharing your progress

[ruthwood]

liking how ur bodies are turning out! some parts may be a bit crooked, but overall you've grown a good understanding of proportions and construction.

seems you're aware that some of ur lines can be scratchy or overly superimposed. i think clean linework can make these drawings feel more firm and defined, and probably make the flaws you're looking for more visible, though it can be tough to improve at. maybe consider trying to limit the amount of lines you use as an exercise? stuff like drawing the figure using only 50 lines max, or "how can i convey the form of the leg in just 8 lines?" and the alike. its personally made me more considerate of the lines i put down and how they support the drawing.

keep it going dude :) you're doing good!

[Noone]

Looking at your figures, there has been some improvement in proportion and form. I don't think using an overall bounding box to practice starting the figure in is particularly useful a method, since it is so basic and rigid it doesn't really aid in the construction of the figure itself. Using basic 3d primitve shapes (cylinders, boxes, wedges, eggs etc) and practicing to orient those in space are probably much more useful since you can construct a basic mannequin out of these.

I would add a couple of pointers that may help. The first is the idea of cross contours. Your most recent drawings, start with a figure mannequin, and then you draw the contour outline around every form; I would suggest before jumping to outlining the silhouette of all forms, think about the forms as a surface and draw lines that trace over the surface itself, not just the silhouette. You don't have to trace every change like in some of these examples although it's not a bad excercise, but using a few basic well chosen cross contours is enough to describe a form.




Not only will it help you analyse and show the form better, but also will help with visualising any foreshortening and feeling like the figure inhabits a space. The compression and stretch points in the figure also become much more obvious





I also second ruthwood's suggestion of making less "chicken scratchy" lines. If you have a curved form for example try to practice the line in your mind first, or trial "ghost" it in above the paper/tablet first, and then try to draw the line in a fluid motion. Be calm, but decisive. You don't have to use a lot of pressure, so if it isn't right you can try again. Eventually your confidence and dexterity will improve, but you have to fail at it first.
One way also of learning to be bold with lines, is to sometimes draw in pen as it forces you to decide and  commit when putting down a line.

Another basic thing I'd like to suggest is try to do some practice from life. Arrange some primitive objects with a single direct light and draw them. Nothing beats understanding how we see form, than using your own eyes to judge what is happening in front of you. For figures, life drawing especially is a wonderful thing to do regularly if you have access to sessions near you.
Keep up the practice

[darktiste]

I think giving structure make more sense before you talk about feeling the form because intuition is build overtime will accuracy is the basis of correct intuition it the repetition of accuracy that become ingrain.

The box size give a contrast between the limb and the torso they help develop a proportional awareness .First the limb are represented rigid and over time bending are introduce as well as foreshortning.

Box are very good to give a direction to the different part of the body since they are planar and plane a better indication of x y z then a ball at first read. I simply suggest the box as the most basic geometric but any combination of primitive depending on the level of mastery can also work. The box being the easiest to measure and divide in perspective.

The goal of bounding box is not to use it as a rigid method of construction forever it more a tool to develop 3D perception and enable physical measurement that as a degree of accuracy so that the user can respect proportion in a scene without having an actual model on hand every time which help them progress overtime toward imaginative figure drawing
Removing the need of actual physically putting down guideline or relying on excessive reference gathering

By slowly alternating between session where you measure and session why you don't until ingrained yet still being intuitively accounted for. Yes you can argue that no body count the head when they draw the figure yet they intuitively do known to draw the torso not long or not draw the head to large. Why is that proportion...

Why complicate thing by reducing it to intuition alone when there is formula...

To me life drawing is mostly about being able to play around the form understanding it complexity but you can't gloss over the structure otherwise when it come to drawing (bending,foreshortning limb) there is no understanding of why something is out of proportion

Contour teach you nothing about how to reduce complex form into primitive. It by working from primitive or at least visualize them that you move toward being able to create organic form. That the basis of rotating form in space. Observation is sequential(to create a holographic image in your mind eye) but when youhave a idea from imagination you don't move around the object to observe it so you have to create a pretty simplistic representation of that object at first unless your at mastery level.

You learn nothing from line alone without anatomy and observation in the case of figure drawing. The line is an abstract cutout of a form it way to reductive of a bigger shape. For example you will never understand why the wrist change so little between skinny and fat person without a bit of anatomy. That line exercise make more sense to be pair with applying some shading because you actually get to learn what the relation that happen between those cross section.

The knee would be way to complex to draw form example memory for begginer without anatomical understanding of below the skin structure.

Live drawing can only get you so far you need a structure but not a structure that create rigidity in the figure. You need a lot of memory to remember structure anyways that why drawing specific complex anatomical detail require reference it just that you most likely will only get a reference that approximative so you need the structure to bridge the gap and identify the landmark that help place and establish a blueprint you loosely follow and adjust until it convincing.

First you learn to walk and then you learn to run. I think doing live drawing is good to help develop accurate figure from imagination but in reality it require more then just observation since you need to understand the principle of balance if you want to convincingly pose figure from imagination.

[Noone]

I'm curious, please show us your latest figure drawings from life or otherwise Darktitse, Have you done any this year, or last?