@mayenla-Thank you! That's the beauty of working from your imagination; you make more mistakes! Can't learn if you don't make mistakes; those mini discoveries help us grow as artists.
@smrrfette- thanks! Very good points; I shall take heed in the future.
A page of sketches from imagination. I only drew 16 hours total this week...): That's less than 3hrs a day ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))):
Nice sketches in that last one. I like how you're doing some foreshortening. You should try to do more dynamic poses like that. And oh man Ive been slipping a bit in the last week of keeping up drawing too. Time to forget the past and get back to it!
@hypnagogic_haze- thanks man! been focusing on a lot of dynamic dudes lately. Yup, break the wall down, crush the devils on the other side, piss on their corpses, get to drawing.
Some Yeti biiish; for a dude's card game, no ref.
Imagine getting punched in the face by this motherfucker. Ohhh, so mean! D:
Working on a piece for a cliiiiiieeeent! Just character work. Embracing the comfort zone: dynamic dudes n shit. (I'm realizing how much fun art is when you do what you like to do rather than what you are expected to do!) So far, everything is no ref; learning to utilize my visual library as far as design goes and I'm further cementing what I believe are my strengths.
Noticing that my process is becoming more streamlined; it's making me a bit faster...me thinks... I just need to continue creating and creating and creating!
Finished another character for my client's ccg project. No references were used...been relying on my brain for everything lately. Oh, and This was actually really fun...the first time I had fun finishing a piece, which is bad and good at the same time hahaha.
I wanna work in my sketchbook, and then see if I'm assigned to do another piece.
I noticed you're making a point of not using reference, I don't agree with your mindset here. I see how working from imagination alone seems more freeing since you don't have to rely on anything else and you get to build up your imagination muscles, but unless you've spent a long, long, LONG time studying whatever it is you're drawing (and by that I mean studying its function and the different parts that make it up and the different variations it can have across different peoples and cultures, not just doing studies of it) then whatever comes out of your head will be more generic and less interesting than real life. That goes for anatomy, costume design, architecture...everything.
I seriously recommend studying anything new you aim to draw, drawing it from observation and then from memory, and by that point you'll have enough of it in your head to draw something cool from imagination. But even when you are drawing from imagination, I'd still recommend having reference around to check that what you're drawing looks right.
I think of it like a test in school, you'd study a lot before a real test to make sure you remembered the answers. A test is the same as a big commissioned piece. What you're doing is like a pop quiz, suddenly testing stuff you now about a subject you haven't done as much work to memorize or know. And pop quizzes can definitely be useful, but they can't be all you do.
@samszym- No problem, and hey, thanks for popping in man!
That's fine man, art is too subjective to announce or denounce any methods of creating; I don't expect anybody to agree or understand my thought process about this subject. The reasons why I think my methods are best for helping me improve as an artist won't vibe with you, EduardoGaray, Psychotime, my mother or anybody for that matter.
But I WILL try to explain my train of thought more clearly, because I never meant to give the impression that I won't ever use reference:
First of all, before I begin, I just wanted to say that I brought up my opinions on reference because I drew a few good figures without using any external type of reference material on human anatomy and it was very contrasting to the work I was putting out 7 days before that post. I was very proud of my achievement, thus my reasoning for exclaiming that I haven't used reference. After realizing that my effort of simply trying to UNDERSTAND what I was drawing instead of jumping straight to guides and art books sparked my epiphany.
After a point in one's art journey, in my honest opinion, an individual must put away the studies, and limit reference so he/she can focus on PERFECTING *THEMSELVES*. Perfect whatever it is he/she is DOING or WANTS to do. In my opinion, studies should supplement one's growth. In my opinion, reference should be aids, not crutches. I believe that if one would take the time and use their brain to THINK about whatever it is they are working on (whether it is anatomy, light, color, form...etc) instead of jumping right to an external source for the answers, he/she will benefit greater and the learned information is retained. However one interprets and learns will ultimately chisel out the artist into who they will become A LOT SOONER than LATER. This course is inevitable, but I believe a submersion in the fundamentals of art bogs the artist down with walls and doubt in one's natural abilities and inclinations.
That being said, once you finish a painting or sketch or drawing, pull out an anatomy book, pull out some references of landscapes and animals, observe life and find out what needs to be fixed so that in the future, the same mistakes won't be as present. This is what I do at least...and I feel that it works well.
Ever since I started creating art in this fashion, I liked art a whole lot more than I did a few weeks ago. I liked MY art a whole lot more than I did a few weeks ago.
All of this, of course pertains to work outside of most client jobs. I understand that this won't necessarily operate well when working under most art directors.
All I have been doing the past year and a half was studying from observation and applying from my imagination. I've only been working in this mindset for barely 3 weeks now. Clearly, I agree with your recommendation: if you were to reread the initial, generalized post, (post #218) you will find that I had specifically said I needed to study design. In the post above yours, (post #226) I had to use reference; I wrote a list of design elements on a piece of paper from a steak n shake server notepad and studied each article of clothing on the figures above but needed reference specifically for the vest.
Thanks for the perspective man, it's refreshing hearing how others approach their work. Conversations like these are what's going to help us grow...and help us prevent brain tumors, hahaha!
Thanks for the response man, really cool to get a look into your mindset here! I definitely agree with your thoughts on thinking, it's so easy to mindlessly copy the reference that's in front of you and wind up not learning what one could have from it. Working at it form imagination, trying to understand what does what, really internalizing the thing your focus on is certainly the way to skyrocket to improvement!
I think the place our ideas part ways in in the artist's vision and source of inspiration. I think a lot on the question "where does art come from?" and what I've arrived at for now is that nothing created by the artist is really unique, or entirely a product of their own mind and inclinations.\
I think when art resonates with the viewer, it's because the artist was able to observe something in life that made them feel something and they then managed to capture that and relay it to the viewer. We distort what we say, mold it to make it fit our particular tastes or some popular movement, but it comes down to sharing what we feel about our experiences, and about the world. I think of the artist as a lens, we need some source of information and feelings to refract, and that's why I believe it's so important to have reference. Not necessarily a photo or a book pulled up that you're looking at, but some inspiration you're drawing from that's not just your own mind. Be it life, research, or somebody else's art. I can't speak for you or anyone else, but my mind's a really dang boring place and I don't think I can trust it to make anything cool on its own.
That being said I agree with your first comment, art is subjective and this is all coming down to basic philosophy, don't expect your nor anybody else to totally agree with me. As long as we improve and make good art, that's all that really matters in the end. I almost wish I had been drawing instead of thinking about this XD
You're definitely improving, keep rocking and doing what works for you!
@samszym- oh yeah, definitely man; that external stimulation is wholly important when creating in general, I agree with you 100%. Thanks! I enjoyed your insight on art; it's something I should seriously incorporate in my process.
Really well defined shapes on the guy jumping with the sword!
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The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.
-Chinese proverb
Guess I'll end my hiatus; 6 months is long enough. Fortunately, I never stopped drawing! That being said, I will only upload some of the sketches I did in the past few weeks. I'm too lazy to scan and upload half a year's worth of sketchbook drawings. (yeah, i got a scanner. wooooo c:)
I'm not making any promises in staying active (as if anyone cares); posting when I feel like it.
Nice to see you get back on your horse, having never really left it. :)
I actually just incidentally read Sam's last post and your response (ages ago!) but wanted to add one thing to your delightful gentlemanly conversation which is what I believe is the nub, the crux, the button, the nugget, the core, the heart, the centre of the issue.
1. Using reference is purely a way to technically get better at rendering something specific.
2. Using imagination is the way to creative freedom.
Any piece is a balance of both. Different people will appreciate these two things in balance to varying degrees.
You find your balance. That's all. :)
STuff; Was kinda designing a subzero redesign for the funz and drew some characters on request from my friends: Trunks from DBZ and a character from this web comic called Tower of God...her name is Androssi Zahard.
Oh, and the Bargue studies. Sumofthuh muhfuhkn, dem goddamn, dem deese uh..DEM BARGUE STUDIES.
awesome progress man
crit/suggestion: dig into values. try doing a character with 3 values: a proper deep black, a light, and a middle. you can make the strokes big and broad so it wont take ages to shade, rather, just allow you to start thinking about getting the whole value range in there. so for example, in that trunks picture in the last post, you have suggested the 2nd value on his suit, but its still a really soft light value. just bring that down to its proper dark level with a 4b pencil or something and practice doing that :)
"If you want liberation in this life, there is no area that you do not watch. Watch the breathing, watch the posture, watch the flow of energy, watch the texture of the mind, watch the response to objects." - Namgyal Rinpoche
@aks9- thanks for the advice man! real sound...I was (and still am) real scared to add value in case I fuck up the drawing and make it look horrific/frakenstein-ish haha but no you're right. I'm going to be practicing what you mentioned in the next set of figures I draw, hopefully.
So much shit soooooooo much shit is going on in my life. Both good and not so good. Well, not really...but the weight of my normal crap, along with some new additions, is really taking my stress to a whole 'nother level. Like, if a baby were in my predicament, that said baby would be poopin' and cryin' so damn much...I don't even know. I mean, I knoooow but, words can't express how much POOP and TEARS that would amount to.
Mom and dad are fed up with me staying home and trying to practice and getting better with art: I don't go out as much as I would like to because I don't have like-minded peers (I love my current friends, but they are really reallllly fucked up and a day with them would literally be a day closer to a 25 to life prison sentence), I'm not going to school, and I've been working the same smelly fast food job for a few years. I'm only 21, but they act as if I'm an antisocial man baby living in their garage. Ya know, dumb parent shit that some of us young aspiring artists go through when relying on mom and dad for food and shelter. I'm not even going to into the details of that type shit, 'cause Y'ALL ALREADY KNOW.
Anyways, in my effort to fucking compromise, I started looking at some cool art programs, workshops, and mentorship courses online. I looked at CGMA, Gnomon, Feng Zhu fAncLuB Singapore and some atelier type shit. I figured that if I showed an interest in receiving a more structured education, versus studying rather blindly in the confines of my bedroom, ma and pa would tack on a few more months to my "lease". Shidd, maybe they will let me stay another year! (Which is fucking dumb in the first place, because technically, if I were still going to school, I would have much more time to stay at home 'cause brainwashing)
I looked at this atelier in Chicago called The Ravenswood Atelier and was sincerely interested in going. But, upon further research, I realized that going to an atelier to learn about illustration and concept design was not unlike taking a basket weaving class in hopes of becoming a pornstar. Not really, but I talked to many people and realized that the emphasis was on mainly drawing something you see, and drawing it REALLY well...damn-near perfect even...and that was usually the gist....obviously, but you know; perspective is beautiful.
In the end I basically said fuck it: I was going to save the money I was going to spend at an atelier and just save it. Continue studying.
In between that time, I was still searching for solutions to ridding this thorn from my side. Apparently, there are some reallllly cool local people that are in fact, named artists in the industry.(which definitely means nothing, but I'm sure there is a reason why people know who Vance Kovack is opposed to ummmm...Kirsten Ulve (she's done work for the Littlest Pet Shop).) So yeah I contacted one person in particular and hollyyyyyyyyyyy shit....shit shit shit. shitshitshitshit. We've agreed upon a short mentor/student relationship. I've been asked not to disclose any names, so this person will be referred to as 'Hank Pym' from here on out.
Parents were initially surprised and a little relieved that I now have a bit of structure to something as mysterious and subjective as art.
...then, the MOTHER FUCKING WORKLOAD HIT ME. I was being fucking CARPET BOMBED by the homework and material I was assigned to complete and indulge in. Hank was hating me because I wasn't living up to his hell-standard. Parents are back to hating me because I am slipping up on chores around the house and yard(their hell standard) my boss at work is hating me because I have new priorities outside of work, and to put a cherry on top of this house of shit, I put a hold on my daily exercises due to chronic pain in tendons and joints all over my body. SO FOR 2 WEEKS, I COULDN'T EVEN ENGAGE IN EXERCISE TO RELIEVE THE STRESS.
I've learned to juggle the shit now...for example, this week, I only work 19hrs versus 35-40hrs. Now, I can make A LOT more time for completing thy parent's bidding and even MORE SO, allow myself more time to complete Fury's assignments and push them farther than what I was settling for. I feel good enough to work out now too; slowly trying to rehabilitate myself and ease myself back to my original intensity.
Fuckkkkkkk...I'm so happy. I have no room to slack off, ya know? This is a recipe for success. I am under a strict deadline (gotta be moved out by June 1st) and I have some cool direction when it comes to getting a foothold on this improving-upon-my-art game we all play. dat Split Screen co-op type shit.
But yeah, it's been real cool learning under Hank Pym: I commute to the city once a week for critiques and demos (demos sounds like "dem hoes". I commute to the city once a week for "dem hoes") and when I get home, I clean up the house. Yay, for rhythm.
I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT REALLY: FINDING YOUR RHYTHM.
Working on art alone is very lonely though...I love this community, I just hate the fact that it's online haha Imagine, a small town populated by daggers.
I do hav-excuse me, HAD, a friend that was very into art too. He decided to go to school in the city to study animation at a really neat art school. BUT, he's taking his personal growth too lightly; the only time he does anything remotely artistic is when he is going to his little classes. I even told him in person and via chat that HE NEEDS. TO GET HIS FUCKING SHIT. TOGETHER. Learn to study, do some research, immerse yourself in your fucking craft and stop relying on a dumb diploma to get you jobs....and that's if he even graduates...
I'm as selfish as I am angry: his ignorance his preventing me from having a study buddy. HA!!!
SO, yeah...I'm gonna become more active on the forums. I want to do some cool study group type stuff, but I am 100% unreliable when it comes to that, I found out last year. For the sake of others, I shall remain in exile. But more than anything, I want to see the peeps I talk to. It was such a breath of fresh air meeting my mentor...I haven't seen another person drawing, in person, in I think 3 years. I actively tried to be around like-minded people and people who share the same interests but they DON'T EXIST. Not where I live at least.
But for now, that is time and energy wasted. Pointless to delve in futile acts; gotta focus on myself and my own improvement for these few months.
Feels nice writing this out. I won't be able to do this often though, simply because of what my responsibilities entail, (hence my rambly rants and sappy sob stories. I love alliteration)
For those who happen to give a fuck, here's the art:
a lot of it is redone because it it wasn't up to Hank's standard. Doing work on someone else's time encourages efficiency: if I spend too much time on the stuff, I may not finish everything but If I rush them, the quality will obviously cause him to make me redo them.
Mr. Pym studied at the Safe House Atelier, hence his method of teaching. I'm working on the plates out of Charles Bargue drawing course supplemented with figure study (he's been trying to get us a live model to study, but whoever was coming up kept getting lost when driving up here) and he is having me do tons of texture balls(glass, matte finish, leather, etc). He is stressing perfection when do those. The first set of 20 are NOT perfect LOL the second set is better...the bargues drawings can become huge time sinks in an effort to get them down perfectly, but like I mentioned before, he doesn't give a fuck if I summon a drawing into our three- dimensional material world; if I don't complete ALL of the assigned drawings, I fail, and I must redo them :l His method of drawing the figures online are something I need to get use to also: he wants a perfect contour of the figure while keeping in mind normal stuff like proportions. He said that there is such a strong disconnect from what I draw from imagination compared to what is real, that he doesn't even want me to draw from imagination or creatively apply concepts I learned as long as I am learning under him.
This made me realllllly skeptical, like, is this dude just a fucking photocopier? How did he make it this far in the industry when he's obviously been relying on reference all these years???...he must've realized this last night, because as if sensing the unease in me, he showed me a quick example of what he is able to do after applying all of the studies and lessons he's trying to teach ME; he whipped out this perfectly rendered figure of this nude beautiful woman in less than 2mins. His sense of form and light and anatomy is so strong it allowed him to conjure an image without skipping a beat. I've never seen anything like it simply because I've never been around the immediate presence of fundamentally-sound artists.
But anyways, I'm gonna empty my cup and forget what I know so I can fill myself with his knowledge, and only after we are finished will I take it and make it my own.
I gotta keep slapping water so in the future I'll be able to break boards!!!
Okay the fucking art: (the red pen is what my mentor uses to indicate where I'm fucking up and to indicate a REDO)
Hey man, just came by to check out your drawings, you have some pretty interesting stuff, i really like your value studies and some of your sketches in particular, but i have to say, you seem to have some difficulty with foreshortening and muscles, how muscles interact and etc, would you mind if i took some of your sketches to point out what i think would make them better?
