Hello!
You have a nice anime style, the ones you did from imagination were great.
Just two points I noted about your notes on some drawings. First, that one about the cheek bone being too low in the manga style. Are you sure that is the cheek bone ? I always thought this as being the cheek, and not the cheek bone! :D The second, the one where you tried a nice perspective with the girl sitting. Perspective was not the main issue in my oppinion, the problem is the leg construction. The position you made the foreshortened leg seems unnatural, almost "broken". The foreshortening effect was good!
Actually, I don't know:) I mean, I assumed it was a cheek bone for a couple of reasons. That's the only protrusion there, there isn't anything that would hint at a cheek bone that's above it. And, the eyes are pretty big, so if we are taking anatomy into the consideration, the cheek bone should be lower to allow for a big eye socket to exist. And then you have that concave shape below it, which I thought to be a skinny cheek. But, I don't know, really:) I find a lot of things strange with anime face stylization in general. For example, the nose often doesn't seem to be fixed and things like that.
About the leg thing, I actually tried to "break it" but in an aesthetically pleasing way, if that makes any sense:D I mean, I have no experience in exaggerated contortions and stuff like that, so I obviously failed, but I actually did try to pull that:D
(when I grow up I want to do environments like you)
Well, it seems I caught some shit, I have temperature and I'm all hazy and stuff... I tried to do stuff but it didn't go that well... So, just two poor little sketches for today.
If tomorrow I don't wake up as a new man I'll start to get really pissed lol
i like what yer doing here.
I really cant give you any advice right now, but i still can recommend you this site for some good practice: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zm5s-nkmr/
Just discovered it, its in japanese but the drawing exercises are fully understandable if you use a translator and all the exercises seem focused on being able to understand the body in 3d and work from imagination.
You can also mix up things trying to construct bodies in 3d while retaining that particular stylization you want to master.
Thanks for the link, I'm browsing it right now... and omg, it's so random lol:) I am just clicking random clickable things and I found a couple of interesting exercises...
With that last line, you reminded me of how majority of full-on anime styles actually don't have a 3d jawline:) So you basically can rotate the head to one point and that's it:) And even at that point you are already stretching it (as the chin emulates some kind of semi-3d stuff and it becomes too elongated).
I really admire that you update so often! Keep it going! I also really like the flow of lines in your last picture, especially the legs. I would have given the hand with the ball a bit of a different pose as it looks like her hand is sticking in the ball a bit, and maybe I'd have broken up the mass of hair a bit more, but I still like the dynamics here.
As for the link posted above, I believe there's somebody on tumblr who translated bits of his tutorials into English here: http://tobediff.tumblr.com/tagged/Nakamura Not sure if this is what you are searching for particularly or if you need it, but I thought I'd post it anway (:
Thanks for the link man, I've browsed it briefly, there are some useful things on creases and stuff like that, it could be really helpful. It's really cool that guy's been translating all that stuff.
Ah, yes, there are tons of mistakes there, the arm, the leg, other arm has wrong proportions... All in the name of learning and failing:D I actually did the hair like that on purpose, I am taking small steps towards stylizing hair and making it more ribbon-ish, I usually draw some horrible tentacles:) (and I still did the tentacle thing on the large hair mass going away from the head)
I'm glad you like it, I'm trying to contort anatomy a bit and to put stuff into space. I am so stiff when it comes to such interventions, so it really means to me if you like the dynamics particularly lol:)
Have you watched "Sayonara zetsubou sensei" by any chance? For me, that's a prime example of heavily simplified hair, down to a silhouette and furthermore, everyone has black hair with no gradient whatsoever, and at the same time, you differentiate characters pretty much by hair only:)
And yeah, I try to practice a lot during the day, I can't allow myself to laze out any more, my clock is ticking lol:D And knowing me, if I skip a day, I'll skip another, so that simply must not happen:)
Today just this:(
This flu or whatever got the best of me, I can like, sit in front of the computer for like 20 minutes and browse and write a bit and all that passive stuff and that's it, then I get dizzy and roll over and die...
If ya still working on that hair, check this video out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtSfm_a_dug Go to around 43:40. Basically when drawing stylized hair like in anime/manga, you need to make sure to vary the start and end points for all the strands of hair, otherwise the hair will lack the dynamic feeling that stylized hair should have. In Japanese it's called "merihari" apparently, which basically means adding interest.
Also, great amount of work you're doing. Keep it up! Will watch you for sure :P.
Thank you for commenting and thanks for the link! That link is great:) I mean, rarely do we get a chance to have an authentic anime tutorial that's translated... I had no idea about this guy's channel. Interesting stuff he got there...
From what I see, I need to keep practicing drawing hair - simple as that:) The way he talks about the subject, he sees merihari as a "tangible intervention" and the rest he pretty much subsumes under "draw hair lol" - I mean strand lines, flow, stuff like that. Which leads me to believe it's simply 90% practice and repetition. Which is good, because that means it's not about some cultural mojo I can't attain:D
I'm still dead sick... it seems to be one of those flu things that simply have to run its course, regardless of what effort I put into curing myself. Well, meh:)
a bit of Hampton
gestures from references
gestures from imagination
and a bit of mechanical practice with lines... trying to draw from the shoulder on a tablet and, well, it's like trying to draw with my foot:) Some directions I simply can't pull off...
Nice drawings and gestures doolio!
I noticed you're drawing the shins of your figures as a concave rhythm that's a reversal of the upper leg's rhythm, I'd recommend trying to draw the shins as straights when you're doing quick drawings. Drawing the rhythm jutting back like that makes you think more about the curves the muscles are making rather than the action or the position of the bones, which I'd say are more important. But maybe you disagree, just wanted to throw that out there :)
Might also be worth drawing the entire leg as a single simple shape, one line from the hips to the outer heel and one from the crotch to the inner heel, just to simplify and cut down on how much you need to think about when figuring out poses int he early stages of the drawings.
The reason I go for an "s" when I draw legs is simple - Hampton does it like that and I'm going through his book at the moment:D It might not be the best way, but for now I'm utilizing his approach.
The underlying reasoning for that is that it enhances the gesture and makes the drawing less stiff (which is something I have to work on). It should be the first phase in making a drawing, it's basically an inaccurate representation of a pose that focuses on gesture entirely. And after that you would add rib cage, landmarks, cylinders for legs and arms, bones etc. and you might change all of the proportions or even whole positions of stuff... so, I think the idea is to gradually get to the finished drawing and not lose that flow you had in the beginning. And that first croquis stage should be made to show the flow and exaggerate movement, without regard to bones, muscles or silhouette (except the spine as the spine pretty much governs the gesture).
So, basically, it doesn't show neither bone nor muscle, it's more of a "ooh look at me, I'm doing this action and oh boy am I doing it" :)
And that would be his method in short. Of course, I wont be blindly following Hampton for the rest of my life, but at this point, I think it could be good to stick to it and then refine my own approach through a-constant practice and b-picking up stuff from bunch of books and artists, which would hopefully form some authentic Doolio approach. And since it could be said that this is the first book of many, I mostly do it "by the book":D
On the other hand, I see your method works really well for you, as your stylized characters are awesome:)
On the third hand(?) I try to exaggerate every curve and tendency I can, because I have a "mental block" when it comes to dynamics and stylization, my waists are always average, my legs can't be ultra thin without looking anorexic etc. So I try to loosen up and go a bit outside the box, even if it means I make mistakes in some other way. And lol, even with all that, my drawings are still stiff as boards and my stylization attempts are as tame as they can be:) So, I'll simply attribute it to practice.
Quote:Might also be worth drawing the entire leg as a single simple shape, one line from the hips to the outer heel and one from the crotch to the inner heel
This might help me with a 3/4 static standing pose, as that pose seem to be magically elusive to me:) I never get the line of balance right, I always draw one foot closer to the body, I always spend like forever trying to figure out the facing of the legs and fail in the end, I always screw up connecting the upper thighs and leg in general etc.
Of course, partly because I've yet to learn the anatomy.
And thanks for nice whishes:)
Ah, I think it's getting better actually, we'll see if that's the case or it's actually a calm before the storm lol:)
Nice job with your gestures. I was trying to work on exaggerating poses as well recently. Proko was saying in one of his videos to practice exaggerating until you break the pose so that you know how far you can push it. So I dont be afraid to make some bad looking drawings. Maybe focus on exaggerating proportions and doing some ridiculously extreme foreshortening. If it looks wrong then you'll get a better idea of how far to pull back toward the realistic.
I learned the main process I use figure drawing from Ron Lemen, and he was adamant that Hampton's way of drawing legs is misinformed. I'm not totally agreeing with that, but I do think it's worth thinking about this and questioning Hampton's (and everyone's) teachings, stacking them up against real life and your favorite art to see if their lessons hold up.
I don't want to turn this into an argument, but I'd like to talk a little more about why I think the S curve for the shins doesn't actually give the drawings better flow. We're in agreement that the gesture is meant to act as a layout for the motion and action of the pose instead of being exact placement for construction or anatomy. That's why I say the reverse shin curve isn't right for gesture, because it represents the form of the gastrocnemius muscle instead of showing the motion or action of the leg.
I would define flow in drawing as a pleasing path for the eye to flow, in the figure created by the direction and action of the body parts. Therefore lines in gesture drawings should be as long and simple as possible so that the flow is not interrupted. What the reverse shin curve does is add an unneeded shape to the leg, which I think slows down the path of the eye and works against you.
Quote:I try to exaggerate every curve and tendency I can, because I have a "mental block" when it comes to dynamics and stylization
I think this is close to solving your stiffness problem, issue is if you're exaggerating anything you notice nothing will stand out. The key to making an extreme statement is exaggerating the right thing and downplaying what's not important. Say you're drawing a guy who's supposed to be a big tough guy and have an enormous torso. if you give him big arms and legs as well, his chest won't feel as big comparatively. You've got to figure out what makes the thing you're drawing unique and play that up and downplay everything else!
It's not just about getting a lot of practice, you've also gotta think about the decisions you're making and figure out what's best to do for the particular pose you're doing. Somethign I was always hearing when I took karate as a kid, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect! Hope that makes sense, good luck :D
Quote:Nice job with your gestures. I was trying to work on exaggerating poses as well recently. Proko was saying in one of his videos to practice exaggerating until you break the pose so that you know how far you can push it. So I dont be afraid to make some bad looking drawings. Maybe focus on exaggerating proportions and doing some ridiculously extreme foreshortening. If it looks wrong then you'll get a better idea of how far to pull back toward the realistic.
I think my problem is basically the lack of freedom, as I had a "fine art from reference" past:) And now when I need to go wild, I go stiff:) But yeah, I'll go in that direction gradually.
Quote:I learned the main process I use figure drawing from Ron Lemen, and he was adamant that Hampton's way of drawing legs is misinformed. I'm not totally agreeing with that, but I do think it's worth thinking about this and questioning Hampton's (and everyone's) teachings, stacking them up against real life and your favorite art to see if their lessons hold up.
Interesting, I didn't know that about Ron Lemen. Could you link to his process maybe?
Quote:I don't want to turn this into an argument, but I'd like to talk a little more about why I think the S curve for the shins doesn't actually give the drawings better flow. We're in agreement that the gesture is meant to act as a layout for the motion and action of the pose instead of being exact placement for construction or anatomy. That's why I say the reverse shin curve isn't right for gesture, because it represents the form of the gastrocnemius muscle instead of showing the motion or action of the leg.
The way I see it, it does "kinda" represent the muscle, but I see it more of a some kind of general flow of the leg and in that sense, it seems plausible to me. It does use the muscle to some extent to define itself but I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing if it doesn't actually follow the muscle "for muscle's sake" but gives the general idea of a "leg" per se, whatever the "leg" is.
Quote:I would define flow in drawing as a pleasing path for the eye to flow, in the figure created by the direction and action of the body parts. Therefore lines in gesture drawings should be as long and simple as possible so that the flow is not interrupted. What the reverse shin curve does is add an unneeded shape to the leg, which I think slows down the path of the eye and works against you.
That is an interesting point, the thing about the flow. But for me, the S for the leg seems natural and even if I wasn't breaking the curve, I would then again represent the leg as the continuous S curve. I was actually drawing legs as S's before I saw Hampton's book, because it felt natural. I even do it for the arms sometimes.
Now, I am not saying you are wrong. Nor am I "defending Hampton" because I am going through his book at the moment, that would be silly:) I find this exchange beneficial and I hope you do too. I mean, all that probably goes without saying, but this is the internet and the written word and all that stuff, so I want to put it out of the way.
That said, the thing is I am "doing Hampton" for about a month and I think I'll chew through it during the next two months, looking at my tempo. And then I'll pick up another source and see what it has to offer. And all that sources (including this talk with you) will shape my approach eventually. Also, this is the first time I'm actually pushing it with practice. And, while I do have some experience with drawing and painting, I haven't had much time to "beta test" Hampton or Lemen or Vilppu or whoever etc. So, even if Hampton's approach is wrong and even if I don't abandon it for the time being, that's still just a drop of water in the big sea of hours I should out into this:) What I am trying to say, I can't really have a solid opinion on either Hampton's or Lemen's methods, because I have yet to do a lot of gesture drawing and anatomy to actually begin to compare or analyze that stuff without boiling it down to guesswork or feeling.
That said, I can't really say what's the right approach, though I can have an opinion about it.
Also, at this stage, "questioning Hampton" could simply make me lose compas and start to scribble with regards to everything and nothing at the same time - you know what I mean. What I am trying to say is that I haven't done gestures enough to start to arbitrarily accept or reject approaches, without getting confused, even if I am not an absolute beginner. It may have been better if I picked Lemen instead of Hampton if his approach is better, but then again, I don't think this book would actually set me back. And with time and practice, I think I would be able to weed out good approaches from the bad ones. At this point I don't really know, but generally, the "s legs" seem fine to me for the reasons I've mentioned.
Quote:I think this is close to solving your stiffness problem, issue is if you're exaggerating anything you notice nothing will stand out. The key to making an extreme statement is exaggerating the right thing and downplaying what's not important. Say you're drawing a guy who's supposed to be a big tough guy and have an enormous torso. if you give him big arms and legs as well, his chest won't feel as big comparatively. You've got to figure out what makes the thing you're drawing unique and play that up and downplay everything else!
It's not just about getting a lot of practice, you've also gotta think about the decisions you're making and figure out what's best to do for the particular pose you're doing. Somethign I was always hearing when I took karate as a kid, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect! Hope that makes sense, good luck :D
Thanks:)
Yup, if you practice things wrong, it does you no good and it often sets you back. I've trained karate (luckily under guidance) and the guitar (self taught) and of course, I got zillion things wrong with the guitar and hit the plateau for which I had to reset all progress and start again to break through it, because it wasn't about skill, it was about correct way of doing things.
About the stiffness, maybe what I said came out wrong. I didn't mean that, I can draw an Obelix-like character without much problems. It's more about the gesture and the interventions and proportions that break anatomy. Now you are saying "yeah, that's Obelix", but it's not what I mean, I might have difficulty in expressing this lol. For example, you can draw a girl that's thin as a twig without her being anorexic and you can put her in an anatomically impossible pose. And that drawing can look appealing. For example, you draw some Sadamoto-ish girl that has that "anime inward leg syndrom" and has both the chest and the butt faced (almost) towards the viewer. And the viewer would say "hey, that's a cool looking girl lol" and the whole thing could have insane amounts of appeal. When it comes to that, I kinda freeze - well, I do really attribute it only to experience. For example, I try to draw a girl with thin legs and I get a girl with bulging knees that looks anorexic because my brain was like "well, if this human is this big, it has knees this big" and my stylization ended halfway.
I don't know if you now understand better what I'm talking about lol (I think I wouldn't:D) and why it's not about the exaggerate pecks-downplay legs thing, but about the whole approach. I mean even I don't see the exact difference when I write it down, but in my head I kinda know what I'm trying to say:) I would say it's more about what HHaze said in his post and what I've said in my answer to his post... Maybe it's because I am after the "looks credible but if it would walk into the room in actual life, everybody would scream in horror" kinda look. Which is about a lot of small(er) interventions in often the same direction, rather then doing the Obelix thing. And for that I think I should learn to go overboard, so I could come back by downplaying everything and have the ability to stretch myself as far as I wish at that moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0SRsjCnzsI here's one video of Ron's method, he has a whole bunch of helpful drawing vids up so they might be nice to check out after Hampton! He's also got a figure drawing book of his own coming out, but it's yet to be published.
I think I better understand what you mean about stylization now, that does sound like a matter of practice and beating your brain into choosing the correct design instead of relying on defaults. Finding proportions that work well is hard, I think the prose Hynagogic described hit the nail on the head. What i meant with the big chest guy is you gotta be able to identify what the goal of the drawing is so you can make it more important and other things less, like how people who draw eyes big decided that it's important to have one eye's space between the eyes, so to compensate the eyes are closer to the side of the head than in real life. Or how the eyes cause eyebrows are pushed up so cartoon people wind up with smaller foreheads, since the range of expression the space between the eyes and brows gives you is more important than having a human-sized forehead.
Anyway, seems like you realize all that and you're on the journey of getting your hand to do what your brain knows. Keep rockin' on :D
Thanks, I'll check him out. I watched the linked video, it actually a bit strange of approach at a first glance:)
Quote:What i meant with the big chest guy is you gotta be able to identify what the goal of the drawing is so you can make it more important and other things less, like how people who draw eyes big decided that it's important to have one eye's space between the eyes, so to compensate the eyes are closer to the side of the head than in real life. Or how the eyes cause eyebrows are pushed up so cartoon people wind up with smaller foreheads, since the range of expression the space between the eyes and brows gives you is more important than having a human-sized forehead.
Yes, I see what you mean. I see it as a mix of studying others and gaining experience from practice. And, maybe the most importantly, what you're trying to accomplish and whether it maintains the appeal and, let's call it, suspension of disbelief.
What do I mean by "suspension of disbelief". We can see that the cartoon or anime girls often have longer shins, even in minimally stylized styles, like the korean character desings. It creates aesthetically pleasing figure with slender legs and all that stuff. But then, there's a problem when it comes to creating a kneeling pose or similar, because instead of sitting on her heels, she would wind up sitting on her calves with heels being like 30cm behind her, which would certainly create an unsettling image, which is opposite of intended effect:)
So, they simply retain the overall leg length and adjust the shin-thigh ratio to be realistic while being in that pose. And then they get up and they have the long shins again:) And it works, we buy it spontaneously:)
Or the "anime chin" syndrome which I've mentioned before in this thread. So in a lot of animes, they choose a-either not to show the head from a very low angle ever (the most usual decision) or b-when they do, they have to break the style and go for the "charlie brown looking straight up" stylization.
That stuff is extremely interesting, especially when you start to analyze it. It's how you said, deciding between different aspects and priorities.
Ok, today's update... A bit skinny, because I'm still pretty sick and on top of that, my hand hurts again. I have somewhat adjusted my drawing position hand-wise and the pain actually went away, but this is some new stuff lol:) I hope I'll find the middle ground or solution or whatever, because I am going to need my hand if I'm going to practice every day:D
Today, some apparel sketches, starting with schoolgirl uniforms (how very original!)... just trying to get to know and remember design variations and get to draw while at it...
Ok, I think this is it for today... I'll listen to my wrist:)
But ok, since I'm quite slow when it comes to linework, masking and that kind of stuff, this actually did take some time:) I'm fairly satisfied with this, if we disregard terrible mixing of a 5 year old (and of course, traditionally horrible hair) :D
