Rate my skill level
"I Don't think anything for what you said is fundamentally wrong i am just concern to how can i go about fixing working in a fashion that doesn't scream repetitiveness if that something possible."

Jimmy, I believe you are actually listening now, which is great. I will try and help, though attempting to address someone else's mindset is never easy. You have to be open to change first and foremost.

As far as I can tell, yours is a mindset issue. You appear to have a very unhealthy relationship with how you view what you call "repetitive study" and this is what appears to be holding you back.  For me learning anything (but especially art) is a privilege and a joy. Any time I don't have to go out and struggle to basically survive and can indulge in my own desire to study and create feels like an amazing privilege to me. 

We seem to have all agreed that you have done very little to no fundamental drawing/painting study for quite a few years and that you need to prioritise this and do so in a sustainable way.  You have developed a very entitled attitude to learning fundamentals as if it doesn't really apply to you if you pretend that you know enough for long enough.

So really this is the shift that you need to make. YOU need to change how you prioritise them, not simply in terms of time spent, but in how you view and understand the value of it. You clearly value it not nearly enough at the moment, because if you were truly serious about wanting to become a professional artist you would be doing what is necessary irrespective of "boredom" or "repetition". I think it's a case of you reading something some professional artist may have said at some time and putting way too much emphasis on the idea of potentially falling into a "trap" of repeatedly studying things, wasting time and leading to stagnation. And yet here we are, where you have stagnated quite a bit by not doing any study at all. Things need balance.

We have all been telling you these fundamentals have incredible value, and while you probably even agree, YOU need to give them a much higher priority both emotionally and in terms of your action than you currently do. You need to accept that you will have to do the work, and may as well find a way to enjoy it. I don't really even understand why you don't enjoy studying? I fucking love it. You have clear goals, you try, and you always learn something. Doing creative work is much much harder. Most artists I know also enjoy studying, it's not just a chore.  

You have done it for short periods of a time in the past. I saw it when you were doing the perspective drawabox exercises as one example. You stuck with them and improved. It was good to see after years of seeing you post large lists of proposed learning schedules and "artist sins" but posting zero work.  Then the you did environment value grouping studies. You did a shit ton of them, but you did them with poor understanding of the task before showing anyone. When you did show them, I gave you feedback as did Joseph, I believe, if I remember correctly? We both even gave you examples of a way to approach them.  What did you do then? You ignored it all and went immediately to the something totally different never to return to them. From what I can tell, from then on, this has pretty much been your pattern. 

You seem to expect that doing one or two studies will make you a master and when you can't see it working immediately, say "fuck it" and go to the next thing completely unrelated. Can you agree this is just an incredibly shortsighted if not plain idiotic approach to learning anything well?  You will NOT get immediate and huge skill increases from one drawing to the next (You may in some instances when things click!) but what you will start to notice is that the process will get easier the next time, then the next, and the next. Eventually it will show up in your general work quality as well, but you cannot simply say you understand the concepts with your mind and so are done with fundamentals. Some of the best artists in the world I see, STILL do studies, they STILL hone their skills. You need to understand this and prioritise them.

I'm repeating a lot to get it through to you.

WRT to boredom or "repetitiveness". Not a single study is repeated ever. With every single drawing you start from a different baseline than the last, and you learn new things or gain new perspectives and learning. You need to stop labeling things as repetitive to begin with. Do the study. If the thought comes up, "I'm bored"  SO FUCKING WHAT. It's a thought. You decide what actually has priority don't you? Will you let a single random thought or feeling that arises control your entire focus? At the moment, it seems you do. 

TRY THIS How about sitting with the feeling of boredom? How about just acknowledging it, as it arises, then saying, "you know what, my time is too precious to be 'bored'. I have a form to capture properly or the perspective of an oval to fix" then simply get back to it.  If it gets too overwhelming, take a break for a minute or two, take some deep breaths focus on them. Go for a short walk, then go back to work. It sounds like you are literally letting your feelings and emotions dictate to you what to do when actually with a bit more focused self awareness, you could simply accept them as they arise and DECIDE to control your response and carry on. This is also something that most people require practice to learn and it can also be improved like any other skill. I wouldn't be surprised if after a few times of observing the feeling of boredom arise and then getting over it over the course of some studies, that you end up being more present and engaged and actually enjoying the study. That is what you want after all. A focused, conscious study full of intention, isn't it?

If you wish to improve your skills you need to enjoy that process of learning and not wildly try to always prejudge how much value you may or may not get out of it beforehand for the time input. The better way is to do the work intelligently and focus  absolutely intensely on very specific skills at a time with the aim that when you need to rely on those skills for doing your actual creative work, your ongoing journey towards mastery of those skills comes out with less difficulty in the creative process.  

Also you must not discount the process you learn through doing the fundamental studies play a huge part in the way we end up doing our creative work and the development of an artistic voice specific to us. If you don't do any study, you aren't really practicing any process with intent, you are simply doing whatever random thing you wish to focus on at a time.

You have written so many "guides" about how to follow an artists journey and not fall into traps, that actually have suggestions for the very problem you have. It is a bit ironic.

All this word salad. I'm trying to say, you need to grow up and decide to get in control of your activities and prioritise those fundamental exercises, in my opinion back to at least 60 to 70% part of all the time you have dedicated to doing art right now. The rest can be spent on developing projects for folio work, and ofc some of that fundamental study you choose can be chosen to overlap with what you need for the next project. You can tweak this as you make gains.
Also as Andrew mentioned, you NEED to push yourself to a higher quality standard with each and every thing you do. We can't force you to do that. You need to do that.

Lastly, I feel you would benefit the most from doing IRL fundamental classes, where the structure will force you to do the work despite your preconceptions. They will help you determine what fundamental may be useful before the other instead of us typing up a course for you. You're in Montreal right? I used to live there. Synstudio is concept art/industry focused school and runs fundamental classes, including life drawing and still life and perspective and others. I can't vouch personally for them,lbut friends' I know have. I recommend at least try and take some more of them to have that outside accountability, until you can develop a better accountability for yourself. 

Feel free to message me if you need anything clarified.

And if you have half an hour or so spare, watch this talk on effortless mastery mindset. He basically covers everything I have had to learn myself about having a healthy relationship to mastering skills and being creative. Some I do intuitively, others I have had to realise. A lot may fly over your head atm, but I hope not. There's a lot of profound and useful mindset information in there.
I actually took a few class at synstudio class that are currently close due to covid i think it atleast 3 class
Analytic drawing 1,Analytic drawing 2 and a class on creature drawing can't remember the name.There was even irl nude model class i did.I also took an other course to learn the basic of drawing but it wasn't at a known school that time it was a really entry artsy kind of class.
There still option to find class online but i think if i want to develop an actually enjoy and stop seeing thing as repetitive taking a class would not help me find way to enjoy that repetitiveness but i don't know how wrong i could be about that.It much more effective to as you said to priotize to cut the idea that it boresome or repetitivewhen it actually serve my priority.I got to overcome the incomfort of doing thing that get me closer to my goal.

I like to design but that shouldn't limit the time i spent on supporting that knowledge and go toward doing thing that even if repetitive in nature will expand my known how,my speed,my problem solving and other skill you don't necessarly realize this repetition build up.

So thank you very much i feel much optimistic in a sense knowing that i can always try to justifiy this incomfort to myself.Even if it can be hard at time.

For me this as you said is a problem of mindset that i don't think a teacher will pick up on until it actually maybe very late in the course.I don't have any guaranty that they will say anything different to something like you gotta do what you gotta do.Yes so what if it repetitive i get it we all have goal to achieve no matter how much we dislike the road leading to it.Absolutely right.As you said a i need to grow up mentality. I just had the perspection or though that there was perhaps other method of studying that actually made the work less choresome but no matter how cool sounding it maybe be wouldn't give me as much as really basic exercise.You see i really do have the perspection that i prefer designing to study but the relation between those two thing can't evolve without a mix of both.As much as i dislike thinking that i need to go back to the basic. You said it pro do it i would be a fool to discard it.

I do have time to watch the video i was thinking about learning to do thumbnail and so that in this way i can get down alot of volume on the page rapidly in a short amount of time since they are small atleast this way i got something else to show then still life of compound shape with no soul behind them.As for perpsective i am not sure of the type of perspective that seem to be my issue i think it much more about the perspection that people get when visiting my SB that i need to represent my character in other than side and frontal view to sell the design to the viewer and the idea that i am able to make my character occupy 3d space.

As for gaining higher standard i gotta work extra hard on self sabotage.Something i think i have not been fully honest with myself.You see you can write guide it doesn't make you perfect at embodying them.I also have to realize i am not an expection to any rule which seem to be a problem to me.Seem like the artist in me who want to beat the convention doesn't like me saying that but to hell with that why discard what as worked for other before... i know it fun to do thing differently but that doesn't make it better just because of that.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
darktiste Wrote:I do have time to watch the video i was thinking about learning to do thumbnail and so that in this way i can get down alot of volume on the page rapidly in a short amount of time since they are small atleast this way i got something else to show then still life of compound shape with no soul behind them.


well, it sounds like you've made some progress in your thinking already which is good to hear. And i don't really want to keep harping on the issue as you are right that we've pretty much reached a close to the conversation now. But I do just want to point out that this quote of yours is kind of curious to me, and maybe this is the heart of the issue.

If you did a still life of compund shapes it probably would be soulless, but it would only be because you don't put any soul into it. The truth is that would actually be a pretty good study for you, but you have a real aversion to it. why? And why do you need a lot of volume on the page rapidly? Who's watching the clock?

Something to leave you to think about is the fact that for most serious art students, though I don't speak for everyone, those soulless still life studies are actually pretty enjoyable. I've done plenty, and I'd like to do more, because I find it interesting. We study art because we are curious and actually want to learn it, not just to get through it. If you have to force yourself to do the study, then I'm sorry, you will not succeed. You have to like what your doing and be interested in it. You can't be dragged into study kicking and screaming, do it as fast as possible, and then expect good results. You have to actually want to do it. It seems like maybe you do, but maybe you still need to work through some things first. Good luck!

You are making the "right" sounds now  Thumbs_up  and I like it. I applaud you for taking the critique even when it often comes from people in a very frustrated manner.  It is very hard to "break through" people's incorrectly perceived mindsets when you are trying to make a point and they simply fight you at every turn, and this can lead to a lot of frustration. I hope we are past the worst of that now 

I want to pick up on a few points.
Quote:I like to design but that shouldn't limit the time i spent on supporting that knowledge and go toward doing thing that even if repetitive in nature will expand my known how,my speed,my problem solving and other skill you don't necessarly realize this repetition build up.

Your fundamental abilities are like the foundational first layer blocks of a pyramid. How strong those foundations are determine the quality of and how stable your pyramid will be. The pyramid is any work you try and produce. The Elements and the Principles of design as shown above work hand in hand as the foundational blocks of the pyramid. The foundations, determine the quality of the final product. You have been mostly focused on practicing and applying design Principles but at some point de-prioritised practicing the foundational Elements as labelled above. What I am saying is not completely accurate, because you can pretty much learn some of both from every drawing one does, but in general this is what you have been doing.  So don't think of them as one supporting the other. These are all the foundational blocks you have to make a solid base.

Quote:For me this as you said is a problem of mindset that i don't think a teacher will pick up on until it actually maybe very late in the course.I don't have any guaranty that they will say anything different to something like you gotta do what you gotta do.Yes so what if it repetitive i get it we all have goal to achieve no matter how much we dislike the road leading to it.

1:  Don't discount the benefit of a very good teacher IRL or even online.  IRL is better as they will cut through your bullshit as you are "caught in the act" of making it. It is simply more efficient than waiting a day or a week or 3 months for feedback.  You are right, there are no guarantees. This is why you should not discount the potential benefits. As Kenny in the video said, the only "failure" is that of inaction due to fear.  Prior experience doesn't dictate future experience all the time, so remain open to the possibility and to trying new things.

2: I also didn't mean to go at it in a FZD style insane "git gud" 16 hours a day work ethic even if you fucking hate every second of it. A sustainable balance is infinitely better than going mental. All I am saying is to again be OPEN to the idea that just because you found something dull in the past, doesn't mean you can't enjoy it in the future.  Your perspective and attitude is so important here. But yes, you do have to recognise the tricks you may try to get out of doing work sometimes. That's for sure.

Quote:i was thinking about learning to do thumbnail and so that in this way i can get down alot of volume on the page rapidly in a short amount of time since they are small atleast this way i got something else to show then still life of compound shape with no soul behind them.

Without going into detail about what and how to study, there are two problematic statements here. 
1: you are already trying to shortcut things by thinking about doing volume and speed. Good study requires both long and short duration studies. They are useful in their own way. A good teacher or structured program will help you to determine when to go long form and when short. But you should also do both yourself and see what you can learn. Short studies tend to focus and practice one fundamental thing without the complexity of other things. Longer studies tend to be about how far you can push and the quality and nuance you can produce. Both incredibly beneficial.  AGAIN, balance is the key.

2: Still lifes are incredibly useful as a study mechanism and I think they can be incredibly full of value and "soul". Please just have a look at a Richard Schmid still life and tell me they are soulless.  Discount them at your peril. They contain elements of proportional accuracy, perspective, value grouping, form, material properties, colour and light interaction theory, composition, and the design principles come heavily into play when you arrange the objects in a pleasing way yourself. And best of all they are done from life so no photo lens gets in the way.  INCREDIBLY useful. Dave Rapoza did a year or so of still lifes only as his study if I remember him saying it from one of his streams. I highly recommend you do these as well. 

I would also say, don't discount figure study man. For similar but very different reasons to still lifes, they are an incredibly challenging subject that hones your skills like nothing else quite can. 

Anyway I am glad to hear the way you are talking now in general. Whatever and however you start working your fundies, post em in your sb and I'm sure there are a bunch of people here that will give you their thoughts and help. I don't really interact on this forum much unless you trigger me in some way  Insane, ecstatic  but I do occasionally pop in.

I want to wish you the best of luck Jimmy. YOU GOT THIS!
Yes balance is the hardest skill to master can be hard not to see when you put to much of your ''artistic weight'' in the wrong section of that balance.

What is for me a big issue is giving some of that artistic weight to my peer so they can inform me on how they could help me without having the sense that they gave me the full solution(did the heavy lifting or in other word no sense of accomplishment).I can be proud to be able to ask help but i also want to feel strong enough to support my own artistic weight if we can say it like that.But if we take a weightlifter as example he wouldn't try to lift more then he is capable that why i shouldn't be doing this by my own or it at the risk of being crush under the weight of what i am trying to accomplish.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
I don't know what artistic weight is. The key thing to learn is to have a growth mindset and cultivate a "beginner's mind" no matter what level you think you have reached. That means being able to integrate new learning and critique and adapt what you do based on it. It means believing you don't know any topic so well that you cannot learn something new about it.

Just do work needed on the various specific skills and if you post it, and if people suggest help, be open to them. You don't have to accept anything at all, but if many people are giving you the same message over and over, perhaps that is a good point to really evaluate what they are sayings more seriously.
All this other stuff about "supporting your own weight" sounds like a mental distraction that isn't useful in any way. Everyone relies on other people to learn from. Nobody is fully self taught or independent. If you have ever watched a tutorial or read a book on art technique or approach on mindset or anything, you have not done it all yourself. It is just silly to not use all the huge wealth of information out there or still believe you did it all on your own. Nobody viewing a piece of art cares how much help you received in developing something.

You appear to spend a lot of time developing mental preconceptions about the right way to "be" as a learning artist. Just listen, learn and most importantly be willing to adapt.
It not much a problem of listening for me it is a problem of trusting critic from people that suddendly appear and having issue gauging the validity of the critism. I hear them but do i trust them?Would you follow bad advise?No body understand my life story or why i got so many issue but oh boy some judge without knowing my life .It doesn't mean that i should use that as an excuse to not grow it simply in the way and make it more difficult to get help.Sometime we prefer to make were own mistake so that atleast we feel we can't blame people for them.But in reality we are always to blame for the decision we make regardless of if we get help or not.It a leak of judgement in part due to leak of self trust that is the problem.I am still learning to understand what is a constructive criticism it to easy to let the ego tell you oh that jalousy or they don't know what there talking about we already have a plan remember and keep digging my own grave...

Atm it really hard for me to draw because even by my own it sometime hard to tell what i am trying to prioritze i can only try to avoid the error other people are warning me about being stubborn i do more error then i should.So right now i am in limbo trying to become really aware of what holding me down and make it as clear as day what are my issue to the outside so they can have a better picture of my internal issue.

Sadly were world talk about genius in a manner like they where the only contributing force to there sucess and that a really bad thing because it send out a really bad message about seeking outside help.

I don't think i got anything more to add i really dislike opening up like this i hate the feeling of being vulnerable but i understand that without this opening i am digging my own grave.

I want to thank everyone for the respect and time they have shown me.I am sincerely believing i am doing my best to stop self sabotaging like that even if i would like the incomfort to be gone it a integral part of growth it by getting comfortable with that incomfort that we expand more and more what we can tolerate better.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
If you don't trust criticism then why do you bother asking for it? Why do you bother giving so much to others for that matter? You say you want honesty but then explain that you find it untrustworthy when it turns out that it's not what you wanted to hear. I still feel as though this whole thread started as a "pat my head and tell me everything's okay" thread but I'll try and be more empathetic here.

You're absolutely right that you don't need to trust everyone or listen to everything however you've been repeatedly told the same things by many different and skilled individuals. I'd imagine at this point it's either all starting to soak in or you're still stuck in that mindset of everyone's out to get you and you should just trust your own intuition. All you need to do is ask yourself what has your own intuition gotten you over these years? If you're happy with where you're at then by all means continue on that path. But it seems to me that you're hellbent on making it in this industry, as a concept artist no less, an INCREDIBLY hard position to land by the way. It is in this light that you have such a mountain to climb that it's in your best interest to set aside your preconceptions and start listening more to all the advice you've been given through the years.

Furthermore it honestly sounds like you don't really enjoy the process at all. Perhaps you're just in love with the idea more than the craft. This profession is a hell of a thing to pursue if you don't absolutely love every aspect of it. Much like what Who was saying, a common trait among artists is the love of learning. We all fucking love the process. There is no boring repetition. This is the job. This is life. There's nothing wrong with just being a hobbyist, but if you want to be a professional you will be faced with much harsher criticism than anything you've faced here. You will be doing the same thing day in and day out regardless of how you're feeling that day.

You really just gotta sit down and do some soul searching. Be honest with yourself. Is this truly something you love doing and have the personality and willpower to pursue? It is not a profession for just anyone. Don't feel ashamed to admit that maybe it isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with just doing it all for fun and at your own pace.
Yeah I agree with bruhsev and Joseph calling you out on your apparent lack of enjoyment or enthusiasm for doing what you label "study". If you don't even enjoy what is essentially an integral and large part of the specific thing you are trying to achieve, why do it? Learn how to make coffee for a living. It doesnt take long to learn and more people probably will enjoy the results of the fruits of your labour.

I am essentially a hobbyist now and I haven't missed a weekly life drawing session (covid aside) in almost two years.  I still take many classes and love drawing/painting and learning that much.  Racing towards a fantasised end and hating the journey is a waste of your time.

As for not trusting feedback.  The reason to ask for feedback is to want it, whatever it is or whomever may provide it. For someone who has been on this forum for 7 years, this (forgive my bluntness) complete noob attitude to learning and critique is extremely perplexing.  Be grateful you get any all. Imo you need to ust get over whatever hangup and mistrust you have. It's highly irrational
Don't get me wrong i like problem solving and specially when it visual problem solving and i like grinding but not being on that stupid stagnation phase i dig myself in.I think i read somewhere that you often struggle the most before a break throught something of that nature.When your face with something obvious your so close to the problem you don't see the solution because it so simple it playing mind trick on you.Yes i can overthink you guy probably can see by the amount of back and forth here.

I am grateful that i can actually draw everyday it this stagnation that make me bitter more than the repetition of daily fundamental.The repetition of good habit lead to sucess.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from everyone error.
Teamwork make your dream work.
Asking help is the key to growth.
Many times we struggle because we have no fucking clue what we are doing but think we do. You shouldn't worry about breakthroughs. You should focus on your practice

“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who had practiced one kick 10,000 times.”

-Bruce Lee

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