Peter's Sketchbook
I think the reclining girl you did a fine job on, her face is decent and her hand is pretty good too. Also her body, well it may look like that, but you can also embellish a body just like a face, jeff does this a lot in quick sketch. He pumps the shapes of the shoulders, breasts, waist (narrows them), stylizes the shapes of the legs and angles the feet, making it look quite mechanical, but sexy. 

Main issue is just her bicep strangely narrows before going into the forearm. Also her leg that is lifted, kinda strange how its curving into the foot, and the contour of her back... Like i would omit the shadow you have thats casting, just shade a little around where the terminal starts, then indicated with a flowing line the contour, and i think that'd look much more appealing, but thats a taste thing. 

Glad youre doing the Gibson... The orc, very stiff, try spending more time in the loose sketching phase, finding a really really really cool pose, and not just first one or even the first 10. Our good friend Gregokari has a great exercise to get better at pose drawing from imagination 

https://www.deviantart.com/gregor-kari/a...-802236170

The rest are in the notes i left on these critiques and im happy to beat with the stick because i struggled for a very long time drawing attractive women, still not perfect at it, but after a lot of scathing feedback over the years i learned what works and yes... Due to subtelty, it is probably the hardest subject to draw well


Attached Files Image(s)






70+Page Koala Sketchbook: http://crimsondaggers.com/forum/thread-3465.html SB

Paintover thread, submit for crits! http://crimsondaggers.com/forum/thread-7879.html
[color=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.882)]e owl sat on an oak. The more he saw, the less he spoke.[/color]
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(10-21-2019, 12:23 PM)Fedodika Wrote: I think the reclining girl you did a fine job on, her face is decent and her hand is pretty good too. Also her body, well it may look like that, but you can also embellish a body just like a face, jeff does this a lot in quick sketch. He pumps the shapes of the shoulders, breasts, waist (narrows them), stylizes the shapes of the legs and angles the feet, making it look quite mechanical, but sexy. 

Main issue is just her bicep strangely narrows before going into the forearm. Also her leg that is lifted, kinda strange how its curving into the foot, and the contour of her back... Like i would omit the shadow you have thats casting, just shade a little around where the terminal starts, then indicated with a flowing line the contour, and i think that'd look much more appealing, but thats a taste thing. 

Glad youre doing the Gibson... The orc, very stiff, try spending more time in the loose sketching phase, finding a really really really cool pose, and not just first one or even the first 10. Our good friend Gregokari has a great exercise to get better at pose drawing from imagination 

https://www.deviantart.com/gregor-kari/a...-802236170

The rest are in the notes i left on these critiques and im happy to beat with the stick because i struggled for a very long time drawing attractive women, still not perfect at it, but after a lot of scathing feedback over the years i learned what works and yes... Due to subtelty, it is probably the hardest subject to draw well

Thanks for all the feedback :)

I feel like I'm slowly getting better at drawing attractive women but man it's such a grueling process! Feel like I'm going at a snails pace haha

I actually really like what you did on the reclining female pose. Such a good way to vignette a pose!

That link you sent me are they all invented or are they quick drawings from ref? I'm assuming the first but wasn't 100%.

I feel like I'm at a comfortable level with heads. They can still be improved by alot but I feel like the foundation is there which isn't in my figure drawings. Perhaps I'm best just focusing on things one at a time rather than doing multiple thnings at once like I'm doing since I do not have enough time in a week to do everything that I want.

What do you find works best for yourself?

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Weekly update.

Portrait Class

I felt like this is one of the better portraits that I've done from life. Still leaves alot to be desired but hopefully I'm heading in the right direction? Next week I'm gonna try and do 1-2 lay ins and use the first as a warm up and see what mistakes I make and then use that knowledge on the 2nd drawing and see if this way of working is of any benefit for me.

1h30m



Life Class

Decided to paint for the last session. I transferred the drawing to a cotton canvas I had. Had to change some of the colours, specifically the reflected shadows in her legs as she was sitting on this bright yellow/green cloth (like a high vis vest) and since I was using the zorn palette there was no way of getting that colour. I was also an idiot and forgot to mix a chromatic black as I forgot to bring ultramarine blue with me. I liked the thigh are of the bent leg but that was about it tbh. I found it rather tough as this was on a 9x12 inch canvas and it felt abit too small for me but maybe I should of simplified the forms more and forgo detail like the face.


2h30m total





Master Study

Took Fedodika's advice and worked on the master study I painted and make corrections in photoshop. Decided to colour pick my colours from my painting to keep it consistent. It definitely looks better but I'm gonna spend some more time on it and dot eh best I can.




Sketchbook

Some invented heads. I felt like these where a step up compared to my previous imaginary heads.




Live Streaming

Erik's Class

H/w for week 2 which was focusing on the figure construction. Definitely spent much longer than I should have.




Brian's Class

H/w for week 1 which was drawing the skull. Decided to copy Brian's drawings and try and understand how he simplifies the forms.




Composition

Some more composition work. I'm interested in medieval/fantasy settings so I made that the focus of my compositons, hopefully these make sense?




Haven't been able to work on any more master studies or anatomy or gouache painting. With my day job and doing the live streaming classes and my regular classes in person I'm finding it hard to fit them in aswell. I'm not sure if I should just focus on one of these for say a month or so and then move onto the next thing I want to study for a month etc or if I should just focus on one thing for a week instead. What do people find here to be the best way to practice? Becuase atm I feel like I'm trying to do too much at once.

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i feel like you should just pick one thing and go crazy on that one thing, like youre weak at attractive girls, just do the fuck outta that until you dont find it hard anymore, that way you have this stronger sense of progress and doing this will help you in other areas

70+Page Koala Sketchbook: http://crimsondaggers.com/forum/thread-3465.html SB

Paintover thread, submit for crits! http://crimsondaggers.com/forum/thread-7879.html
[color=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.882)]e owl sat on an oak. The more he saw, the less he spoke.[/color]
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When it comes to your painting. A practical thing I sometimes do if I have the time for it, is once I've done my drawing, I paint it in with some dark color with turps. Once it's dry, I can paint very feely over it without loosing the drawing as long as I keep things semi transparent. It keeps you from having those very hesitant marks near edges.

I would recommend not thinning down your paint so much, especially on smaller paintings. On a small painting you need the paint to grip the brush a bit so you can actually work with it wet into wet without causing a mess. If your tubed paint is all soft (like most of them are) spread it out on some newspapers or something and let it rest to get rid of all the extra oil. Your paint in the pic is so thin it doesn't fully cover the canvas and it looks like it's causing you issues.

About the colors: Part of the reason the "Zorn palette" is used as an introductory palette is to teach students to have a relative approach to color. If you can't paint a bright green as a color, you have to shift all other colors away to make room for it in a relative sense. I make a lot of landscape paintings making green with just ochre and ultramarine and it gives me a very weak green but I just shift the relative colors to either be more warm or cool and it looks perfectly natural. So instead a green color being green, it's now a blue-ish green, a warm green is a green, and a cool green is blue, yellow becomes grey and so on. That's sort of the whole point with it. Going "oh I can't paint that color" is the thing you're trying to learn how to overcome. It's maybe a bit weird at first but it really comes in handy. What you could have done (if I understand the setup) was to paint the bright reflective green as white and gone for a more purple skin tone.

I would really like to encourage you to look at some artists that approach things differently from how you're currently doing things (specifically, non modern artists). It worries me that you don't really seem to be looking at the subjects you're drawing and painting. It's kind of like you're just using them as a general guide for a drawing from your imagination rather than really observing the subject and drawing it faithfully. I really think this stylised approach you're doing is getting in your way and it's super common to have this problem with the Watts people because they don't really care that much about accurate observations... But you can choose to care and I think being a bit less dogmatic about outlining, marking off the shadow with a literal line, having some kind of predetermined construction, forcing it into some preconceived ideas about gesture, could do you some good. Maybe instead just try to look and be very honest when trying to represent it just the way you see it. Look at Repin paintings for example. There's no stylised dogma he follows, no fancy brushwork or special blending. It's just him trying to put the right color in the right spot. Any idea he has about form, gesture or whatever is entirely secondary to what he's actually seeing.

About your question, I think it's helpful to sometimes just split learning into 3 subjects. Theory, observation and technique. Theory is all the perspective, anatomy, color theory and so on. Observation is just your ability to see accurately, to see what needs to change in order to make your drawing accurate and all that, often I tie this to drawing, color and values. Technique is putting observations into practice, can you make the paint come off the brush in the way you want and that kind of stuff. If you think of art like this, learning is a lot simpler. It doesn't matter if you're doing a figure drawing or a landscape, you're often trying to train something that is a skill independent of the specific subject, something more fundamental.

If I were to put them into a hierarchy then it would be observation at the top far above all others, technique next and at the bottom theory. You don't technically need theory if your other two abilities are strong enough but it can often help, like in the example with the zorn palette. If you're into imaginative drawing, like I also am, then you kind of need to get all 3 really good but observation is the limiting factor. The better it is, the more you'll be able to learn in the other categories.

So a master study is generally great for technique and can help a bit with some theory, at least how it ties into practice but there's no real point in doing one if your goal is to train your observation abilities. Observation abilities are trained when you try to draw anything accurately and continually correct your errors so doing a master study doesn't have any inherent advantage in training it. If you're into technique, then master studies are great because you can try to find ways to emulate theirs through close study. So I'd say master studies are about learning how to put your abilities into practice.

Now if this makes no sense to you, feel free to ignore it, but it any of it resonates, it could be worth thinking about. I'm not trying to say that a certain way of doing something is completely wrong, but I think it's useful to be skeptical about very constrained and dogmatic approaches to "good art". They can be useful at times but also a hinderance at others, like I suspect it is now.

Discord - JetJaguar#8954
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(10-28-2019, 07:14 AM)Fedodika Wrote: i feel like you should just pick one thing and go crazy on that one thing, like youre weak at attractive girls, just do the fuck outta that until you dont find it hard anymore, that way you have this stronger sense of progress and doing this will help you in other areas

That's what I'm leaning to doing now and then just switching topics every month or few months. As you said everything feeds into something else

Reply
(10-29-2019, 03:02 AM)Tristan Berndt Wrote: When it comes to your painting. A practical thing I sometimes do if I have the time for it, is once I've done my drawing, I paint it in with some dark color with turps. Once it's dry, I can paint very feely over it without loosing the drawing as long as I keep things semi transparent. It keeps you from having those very hesitant marks near edges.

I would recommend not thinning down your paint so much, especially on smaller paintings. On a small painting you need the paint to grip the brush a bit so you can actually work with it wet into wet without causing a mess. If your tubed paint is all soft (like most of them are) spread it out on some newspapers or something and let it rest to get rid of all the extra oil. Your paint in the pic is so thin it doesn't fully cover the canvas and it looks like it's causing you issues.

About the colors: Part of the reason the "Zorn palette" is used as an introductory palette is to teach students to have a relative approach to color. If you can't paint a bright green as a color, you have to shift all other colors away to make room for it in a relative sense. I make a lot of landscape paintings making green with just ochre and ultramarine and it gives me a very weak green but I just shift the relative colors to either be more warm or cool and it looks perfectly natural. So instead a green color being green, it's now a blue-ish green, a warm green is a green, and a cool green is blue, yellow becomes grey and so on. That's sort of the whole point with it. Going "oh I can't paint that color" is the thing you're trying to learn how to overcome. It's maybe a bit weird at first but it really comes in handy. What you could have done (if I understand the setup) was to paint the bright reflective green as white and gone for a more purple skin tone.

I would really like to encourage you to look at some artists that approach things differently from how you're currently doing things (specifically, non modern artists). It worries me that you don't really seem to be looking at the subjects you're drawing and painting. It's kind of like you're just using them as a general guide for a drawing from your imagination rather than really observing the subject and drawing it faithfully. I really think this stylised approach you're doing is getting in your way and it's super common to have this problem with the Watts people because they don't really care that much about accurate observations... But you can choose to care and I think being a bit less dogmatic about outlining, marking off the shadow with a literal line, having some kind of predetermined construction, forcing it into some preconceived ideas about gesture, could do you some good. Maybe instead just try to look and be very honest when trying to represent it just the way you see it. Look at Repin paintings for example. There's no stylised dogma he follows, no fancy brushwork or special blending. It's just him trying to put the right color in the right spot. Any idea he has about form, gesture or whatever is entirely secondary to what he's actually seeing.

About your question, I think it's helpful to sometimes just split learning into 3 subjects. Theory, observation and technique. Theory is all the perspective, anatomy, color theory and so on. Observation is just your ability to see accurately, to see what needs to change in order to make your drawing accurate and all that, often I tie this to drawing, color and values. Technique is putting observations into practice, can you make the paint come off the brush in the way you want and that kind of stuff. If you think of art like this, learning is a lot simpler. It doesn't matter if you're doing a figure drawing or a landscape, you're often trying to train something that is a skill independent of the specific subject, something more fundamental.

If I were to put them into a hierarchy then it would be observation at the top far above all others, technique next and at the bottom theory. You don't technically need theory if your other two abilities are strong enough but it can often help, like in the example with the zorn palette. If you're into imaginative drawing, like I also am, then you kind of need to get all 3 really good but observation is the limiting factor. The better it is, the more you'll be able to learn in the other categories.

So a master study is generally great for technique and can help a bit with some theory, at least how it ties into practice but there's no real point in doing one if your goal is to train your observation abilities. Observation abilities are trained when you try to draw anything accurately and continually correct your errors so doing a master study doesn't have any inherent advantage in training it. If you're into technique, then master studies are great because you can try to find ways to emulate theirs through close study. So I'd say master studies are about learning how to put your abilities into practice.

Now if this makes no sense to you, feel free to ignore it, but it any of it resonates, it could be worth thinking about. I'm not trying to say that a certain way of doing something is completely wrong, but I think it's useful to be skeptical about very constrained and dogmatic approaches to "good art". They can be useful at times but also a hinderance at others, like I suspect it is now.

The main issue I'm having with oil paints is that I'm treating turps as if it is what water is to watercolours or goauche if that makes any sense? I was thinking that you use turps to thi the paitn down so it's easier to apply and that you do that for the whole paitning which is completely wrong. My understanding of oil paint is very lacking since I haven't put the time in to understand it. I started watching a muddycolors video on oil paitning which goes over the tools and materials and I've found that help clarify alot of issues that I was having. I think  I just need to understand it more rather than going in blind so to speak. Same with the zorn palette, perhaps reading about it more will help me make sense of it.

Are there any good resources that helped you with understanding how to paint and how colours work? I'd say out of everything it is by far my greatest weakness but unsure where to start to learn more about it.

I do try and draw what I see in front of me and be focused on what I'm doing, perhaps I'm focusing wrong? When you talk about taking a different approach what approach do you mean exactly? Are you talking more of an atleier way of drawing of drawing the outline shape first and breaking the lines down into straight lines (Dorien Itens guide for example), or just other resources in general? I'd say the main reason why I study Watts is, apart from liking their work, is that I'm more interested in illustration which is geared more towards the construction approach (atleast the works that I like).

I think I understand the points you make, might need sometime to think about it some more and let it sink in, is it alrigh to pm you a bunch of questions if I have any, and probably will?

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Didn't expect replying to comments would take me so long. Got some non art related thigns to take care of so I'll post work from last week tomorrow.

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Portrait Class

Had a go at what I suggested in my last update of doing a 20-30 min warm up drawing to wake myself up and help me figure things out for when I attempted a 2nd drawing. I believe it definitely did help so I'll start warming up with that in my physical classes




Life Class

Some gesture drawing to start and a longer pose which I struggled alot with. I was confident going in but had a tough time with my proportions which I was constantly re-working.




Sketchbook

Some more Gibson heads quicksketches to warm up.




Anatomy

I've been diving back into anatomy again, trying to force myself to stick with it and persevere. Been working through that anatomy for sculptors book for these copies and using Paul Richers "Artistic Anatomy" book as reference aswell.

From Ref




A few days later I tried redrawing these copies from memory to see what I had retained and what was still hazy and thne spent some time correcting myself which I plan on doing alot more of.

From Memory




Corrections










Live Streaming

Erik Week 3 - More figure construction. I'm measuring with plumb lines and looking at negative shapes etc but my proportions are still hit and miss. Not sure if I should be spending more time on my drawings or what.




Brian

Week 2




Week 3 - Agian had a tough time with the proportions. It was going well at first but somewhere along the way I messed up which started throwing off the rest of my measurements.




Feedback

Feedback from Erik's classes. Haven't got anything to share for Brian's class yet. So far there are only crits for week 1 (might of updated now) and he had no issues with my h/w so there was nothing to correct.

Week 1






Week 2





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Rather late with an update butter better late than never.

Portrait Class

Started another 3 week pose. Don't really have anything to show from the first week. I started going through Dorian Iten's guides and videos (particulary his accuracy guides) and tried that appraoch to drawing in the first week but it didn't go too well. My problem seemd to be I wasn't simplifing enough and trying to go straight into detail which didn't work at.

I started going through the "Essentials to Realism course" again on schoolism to help me with my block ins, and just trying a different approah to drawing rather than how I've been working to see if it would help me with my accuracy/proportions like Tristan suggested.

This week I completed 2 drawings. 1. using the atelier approach and 2. how I normally draw





Not sure what to do for the final week. I normally paint but I might take one of these drawings to a finish or even start again and aim to get a finished drawing done in the one session.

Essentials to Realism

Some figure practice based on the first lesson of the course. Trying to get in the mindset of drawing what I see.








Life Class

First pic is from before I started working through the course using the constructive/Watts approach.




Second pic is from after I started working through the course again and trying to impliment it into my own drawings from life (only for the longer pose though).




Not sure if it is just me but proportionaly it feels alot better than my past drawings and didn't take as long as I thought it would. Tbh I'm quite liking this way of working. I want to see if I can do this block in first just drawing what I see and then once I have the block in done, apply the construction on top.

Proko Figure Drawing

Wanted to work on my construction, particulary the torso/hip as lately I've felt like I've struggled alot with it in my drawings. Things lke not knowing the positon of the hips or where the legs are connecting. I thought doing some studies, breaking down those forms into beans/boxes might be of help.






Live Streaming

Relaised I haven't posted the h/w's and crits in awhile so here's a big fat dump :)

Erik

Week 4




Week 5 (started implimenting the atelier approach here)




Brian

Week 4




Critiques

Again don't have any trace overs from Brian simply because he hasn't had anything to fix/crit me on so far.










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Where the reference of big head man from week 4?He as really strange proportion.

My Sketchbook
The journey of an artist truly begin when he can learn from is own error.
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