Darktiste Sketchbook
Glad to see your experimenting, I recommend drawing those characters you are making in a 3/4 view pose to get more depth out of them.
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Yes thank Demon i am working exactly toward that direction i revised some proportion this weak and played with more different body shape.So here what i did i studied world of warcraft race to add a more broad range of proportion to extend the richness range of character making ablity and i also studied the reilly method because i felt that i was more working from reference than a sense of knowing why everything fall where it fall making me rely to much on grid and head measurement so i tried to get more mileage there.Next is going to probably be the reilly method for the back and the 3/4 view i was also thinking about studying other artist to stay away from static pose for me it still hard to use the body to help tell the story and personality.I been to focus on turn around.I am thinking about doing some volume study of the body also later.I am Trying to be less diverse in my study and more focus on certain topic will probably be beneficial for me.


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Finally manage to bring this bad boy to a decent level that was satisfactory enough for revision and critic.I am definitvely seeing that i need much more mileage now that i tried something else than a profile or a frontal pose i bet some people can do this in a lot less time than i did.Taking in consideration that i was trying a new approach it easy for me to see why i feel this way.I feel that it atleast a step away from my comfort zone not sure i should go try right away more expressive pose i am certainly not going to do a super hero pose next that for sure.Maybe i will try this pose again but with a different way of constructing the mannequin.I also tried to start to think more about just not just drawing male figure because you know world aren't just fill by man...


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Like Demon said - it's great to see you experimenting and trying new approaches. Don't feel discouraged by how long something new takes to do. It will always take the longest the first time round as it requires a lot of thinking and problem solving.

This is just a personal opinion, but I think you should take away the crutch of mirroring your front on figures/characters. Yea people's left side might not be wildly different to their right, but at the same time, no one is completely and utterly symmetrical. Imo, mirroring not only makes your figures look more mechanical than natural, but you're also robbing yourself of learning how to draw and experimenting (the latter especially being true when you do your character design work).
Like I said, this is just my opinion. If this is the look and style you're going for, then keep on keeping on

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(12-01-2020, 03:23 PM)chubby_cat Wrote: Like Demon said - it's great to see you experimenting and trying new approaches. Don't feel discouraged by how long something new takes to do. It will always take the longest the first time round as it requires a lot of thinking and problem solving.

This is just a personal opinion, but I think you should take away the crutch of mirroring your front on figures/characters. Yea people's left side might not be wildly different to their right, but at the same time, no one is completely and utterly symmetrical. Imo, mirroring not only makes your figures look more mechanical than natural, but you're also robbing yourself of learning how to draw and experimenting (the latter especially being true when you do your character design work).
Like I said, this is just my opinion. If this is the look and style you're going for, then keep on keeping on
Yes i am thinking about it atleast more consciously now i trying to add more asymmetry element that i don't mirror but it mostly a question of saving time generally when i am mirroring.Most of what i have been doing with character design so far are turn around but i am trying to work more the presentation side my problem is that right now i like to create such a large range of thing inside a universe that it doesn't help me to progress at a rapid rate because i am not focus enough i gotta fight my scatter brain problem and make decision to where i really want to take my work i sense that the issue is that i hate reducing my opinion.You always hear people say you shouldn't put all your egg into one basket but right now i got like 3 basket :Character design,prop and Creature design it just a question of what do i want to push as my main flavour and what i want to keep more for my personal work.

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your presentations are nice and clean and definitely for a design sheet/turnaround the symmetry is ok, you can add some little things like a little change to the hair shape, or an earring on one side or something to break that a little. I do agree that developing the skill of drawing a symmetrical character is useful (all drawing will be useful!) but it's all good!

I also don't see anything wrong with exploring characters/creatures/props all at the same time, it's all drawing and designing and will all be useful! Specialise later if you find that one thing you love (I wish I could find whatever that 'thing' is that I love enough to stick to it!). If you look at an artist like Nathan Fowkes who designs environments, his figure studies and portraits are also incredible, he certainly didn't pick environments only, all the disciplines inform each other!

Also heard some disappointing information on a podcast about character design - it's actually the position with the fewest openings, and the highest number of applicants! Everyone wants to be a character designer! Not that that should deter you, but it made me think I should focus on other areas in addition to characters.

You're doing great man ^^ keep it up : D

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I heard similar echo concerning character design.I like props design but i also like to design what everyone else want to design but the reality is that there is more job for the less cool stuff than there is job for the cool stuff.You make a living doing what people won't do or you make a living being the best at making the most cool stuff in the cool stuff section but that an other level of dedication.

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Now take the Reilly rhythms and some figure pose references, croquis cafe etc, and do a ton more drawings where you use the rhythms to help you find the landmarks on the figures and draw the poses with a decent feeling of weight and action. That's the practice that will help the most
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Yea i agree thank for backing what i was in a way thinking about doing it seem that i am actually progressing in what i see myself doing.

But i am seeing resistance because i am actually starting to realize what i like and dislike more clearly now that i am actively seeking to identify what i like instead of trying everything.(which was still useful)My conflict right now is how much anatomy i want to continue pushing there this inner conflict between me wanting to do creature and character design but what really seem to be what i wasn't understanding clearly before it not that i necessarly enjoy creating character but rather that i find enjoyment in creating the element that support the character like i almost prefer to tell story throught costume&prop than making a good looking figure. I don't care so much about realism but to break the rule you have to know the rule as they say.

For me anatomy seem to be such a high mountain to climb i would probably rather climb other thing that would benefit me more but i can't just simply ignore it if i am being realistic about my other design interest(character,creature design)it nice to create costume and prop but sometime it nice to create association with a character.

What i think i am trying to say is that it always a fight between wanting to create a nice creative cake and the inability to create a convincing cake.Design is secondary to drawing i gotta keep it real can't lie there no future for me without actual drawing skill no matter how cool my idea might be.It can be really frustrating but saying that doesn't change that so why i am even bothering saying that idk.

I think i am trying to find excuse again not to do anatomy i find that when i approch anatomy it like i am never gonna be done studying that subject and it leak what i like it not creative right away!!!But on ther other hand doing prop even if it just a boring cup of tea you can try to do something that let you express that creative urge.So it a question of do i delay the gratification(being able to create figure) or do i do thing that seem easy to me(costume and prop) do i prefer my reward to be through expressing creativivty or do i get reward through feeling more competent about my skill in regard to anatomy.

No body can answers that for me that the reality what kinda enrage me right now is you want to help me but it like i am moving away from what your proposing and i don't want you to feel like i am avoid what should be done.It a hard place to be to when you know what you want.Let just say i don't think i am gonna be doing anatomy for to long since my vision is becoming alot more clear than it was i will be able to adjust for there. Who know i might develop a taste for anatomy.

Before i had to many option but i wasn't really digging into what aspect of those study i was enjoying now i feel like i am working with more passion because i start to understand why i am doing art and what message i can inject into my art even if sometime i just enjoy creating for the sake of creating.

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In some Marshall Vandruff lectures he showed some art styles that were very successful but the artists didn't know anatomy, or even much design sense (i.e. viral webcomics). He said it's about goals and if your goal is telling the story and you don't care for anatomy then don't worry about it.

That said human anatomy is an art fundamental, knowing it can only help! And you're essentially learning creature anatomy too since it's just variations of the same system.

While it is a life long study that you need to revisit, the bones and muscles don't change, so in a way you kind of only need to do it once, all the subsequent visits just build and increase the understanding.

It's easier said than done but don't look at how high the mountain is, just take the first step and pace yourself. The walk is actually really enjoyable ^^

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(12-02-2020, 03:14 PM)JyonnyNovice Wrote: In some Marshall Vandruff lectures he showed some art styles that were very successful but the artists didn't know anatomy, or even much design sense (i.e. viral webcomics). He said it's about goals and if your goal is telling the story and you don't care for anatomy then don't worry about it.

That said human anatomy is an art fundamental, knowing it can only help! And you're essentially learning creature anatomy too since it's just variations of the same system.

While it is a life long study that you need to revisit, the bones and muscles don't change, so in a way you kind of only need to do it once, all the subsequent visits just build and increase the understanding.

It's easier said than done but don't look at how high the mountain is, just take the first step and pace yourself. The walk is actually really enjoyable ^^
Yea i am kinda like that i look at the mountain instead of enjoying the hike i am kinda hard on myself when you put it like that.

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I'm not sure who you're responding to Jimmy, but what I suggested has little to do with anatomy as the skill to improve. More knowledge helps everything ofc.
You want to draw characters of any kind in action that don't look stiff as f*k and believable, so you're going to have to practice the basics in lots of different poses, perspectives and weight dynamics, and trying different figure abstraction methods to see what you like to use, more than you have been doing (almost none) regardless of how stylised you intend to render things. That's the hard truth.
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(12-03-2020, 04:42 AM)Who Wrote: I'm not sure who you're responding to Jimmy, but what I suggested has little to do with anatomy as the skill to improve. More knowledge helps everything ofc.
You want to draw characters of any kind in action that don't look stiff as f*k and believable, so you're going to have to practice the basics in lots of different poses, perspectives and weight dynamics, and trying different figure abstraction methods to see what you like to use, more than you have been doing (almost none) regardless of how stylised you intend to render things. That's the hard truth.
Sorry i forgot to click reply.Did the back pose now i am collecting reference for more gesture drawing will probably do a mix of 2min, 10m and 30min and 1 hour drawing.Probably something like 30x 2min pose 6x10m 2x30min and 1x1hour pose and i will call it quit form there and come back revisiting the topic not saying that the end of it for my whole life it just that i don't really know how much of this i should be doing realistically and have time for the rest of the thing i have to progress into.I am certainly worried about where i am investing my time now i know it gonna pay off it just what is gonna be the use of anatomy if i end up being more interest by costume and prop that where there a conflict in my vision.


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You should stop relying on the symmetry tool, it's only robbing you of more mileage and knowledge. Also you really need to focus on building up forms properly as even your 3/4 view looks like just a very flat and stiff outline.

You keep circling back to this thought process of "wasting time" on learning the fundamentals. I don't know where you're getting this from. The way you speak always sounds to me as though you really do not enjoy drawing, its actually a little bizarre. You can't expect to be a costume designer (or any sort of designer for that matter) without understanding the forms underneath the designs.

Let's try to put it into perspective another way. There are thousands of artists all studying the fundamentals, properly, right now. Some are right here on these forums. They're all looking to fill the same jobs you are. What makes you think you can skip over the basics and get hired over them? Flat out truth is, you cannot. You have to accept that learning the fundamentals is not a waste of time, it is mandatory.

I know most people will try and say not to compare yourself to others and it's mostly true. However if you're seeking employment as a professional artist you really have no choice to as these people are, quite frankly, your competition.
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one thing I’ve noticed is your lines, why don’t you use the pressure of your pen? all your drawings always have the same pattern of thick lines and as if you were drawing with the mouse.
drawing a human figure is one of the fundamentals I don't understand why you think that studying one of the main foundations is somehow a waste of time. about your characters I will repeat again something I had already commented on here a while ago you need to draw characters moving and not just standing
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(12-03-2020, 09:20 AM)darktiste Wrote: Sorry i forgot to click reply.Did the back pose now i am collecting reference for more gesture drawing will probably do a mix of 2min, 10m and 30min and 1 hour drawing.Probably something like 30x 2min pose 6x10m 2x30min and 1x1hour pose and i will call it quit form there and come back revisiting the topic not saying that the end of it for my whole life it just that i don't really know how much of this i should be doing realistically and have time for the rest of the thing i have to progress into.I am certainly worried about where i am investing my time now i know it gonna pay off it just what is gonna be the use of anatomy if i end up being more interest by costume and prop that where there a conflict in my vision.

To put in perspective. That is only one half day of work you're willing to put in for the foreseeable future!

If it was one day a week for a few months or a year that would be better. 
Most people spend months to years on figures as a good subject and way to practice most if not all drawing fundamentals! 
Yes, even for people who want to draw things besides figures. I don't think you understand this basic thing at all tbh.

I second the suggestion to never resort to your mirroring crutch again until you are a professional artist. It's a lazy shortcut that gives you no mileage in these exercises.
Also second the multiple suggestions in your sb of using pressure sensitivity to adjust your line weight as you draw. If it ends up looking shit, it's because your skills are shit. Better to know. Also you can and should do some of these things traditionally. You are using all the digital tricks you can to try and wiggle out of actual learning. Can't cheat in pencil.

At this stage I still think the best option for you is to enrol immediately in a course (online for obv reasons) that teaches drawing fundamentals with specific deliverables and feedback, so you don't have to try and prioritise it yourself accurately at all. Watts or SynStudio or Dorien Iten's paid content; really anything that focuses on your actual drawing skills. None of these courses are silver bullets alone, but they are all definitely bound to be better than what you are deciding for yourself, because that just isn't working. There are many reasons why people pay to learn, but I feel like investing more actual money into proper training will force you to value the subject more as well as help you improve despite your odd relationship to training. As you have been a pretty slow and self sabotaging, self teacher, I'm afraid if you keep leaving it to yourself, you'll only go right back to the same old pattern. You're already doing it

If you wish to just keep doing your own thing and not invest adequate time + money into the training aspect, I think it's better for you that you put career or job far out of your mind and just do art for fun in only the way you want and maybe creep up on the goal in the next decade. That's more accurate to your situation as it stands.
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(12-07-2020, 10:28 AM)Who Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 09:20 AM)darktiste Wrote: Sorry i forgot to click reply.Did the back pose now i am collecting reference for more gesture drawing will probably do a mix of 2min, 10m and 30min and 1 hour drawing.Probably something like 30x 2min pose 6x10m 2x30min and 1x1hour pose and i will call it quit form there and come back revisiting the topic not saying that the end of it for my whole life it just that i don't really know how much of this i should be doing realistically and have time for the rest of the thing i have to progress into.I am certainly worried about where i am investing my time now i know it gonna pay off it just what is gonna be the use of anatomy if i end up being more interest by costume and prop that where there a conflict in my vision.

To put in perspective. That is only one half day of work you're willing to put in for the foreseeable future!

If it was one day a week for a few months or a year that would be better. 
Most people spend months to years on figures as a good subject and way to practice most if not all drawing fundamentals! 
Yes, even for people who want to draw things besides figures. I don't think you understand this basic thing at all tbh.

I second the suggestion to never resort to your mirroring crutch again until you are a professional artist. It's a lazy shortcut that gives you no mileage in these exercises.
Also second the multiple suggestions in your sb of using pressure sensitivity to adjust your line weight as you draw. If it ends up looking shit, it's because your skills are shit. Better to know. Also you can and should do some of these things traditionally. You are using all the digital tricks you can to try and wiggle out of actual learning. Can't cheat in pencil.

At this stage I still think the best option for you is to enrol immediately in a course (online for obv reasons) that teaches drawing fundamentals with specific deliverables and feedback, so you don't have to try and prioritise it yourself accurately at all. Watts or SynStudio or Dorien Iten's paid content; really anything that focuses on your actual drawing skills. None of these courses are silver bullets alone, but they are all definitely bound to be better than what you are deciding for yourself, because that just isn't working. There are many reasons why people pay to learn, but I feel like investing more actual money into proper training will force you to value the subject more as well as help you improve despite your odd relationship to training. As you have been a pretty slow and self sabotaging, self teacher, I'm afraid if you keep leaving it to yourself, you'll only go right back to the same old pattern. You're already doing it

If you wish to just keep doing your own thing and not invest adequate time + money into the training aspect, I think it's better for you that you put career or job far out of your mind and just do art for fun in only the way you want and maybe creep up on the goal in the next decade. That's more accurate to your situation as it stands.
I don't know what to tell you bro you got valid point.I am doing as much as possible to pivot my work right now so if you feel like i am falling into my old habit idk what your refering to exactly.

Now concerning online course i been studying steven huston and did some gesture drawing i am gonna be posting soon.I don't have any course in mind right now even after checking for sometime.No body going to teach me how to appreciate fundamental if i don't do it myself.But they certainly can teach me more about them.I understand that you don't trust my judgement but for my own confidence i have to trust my own judgement and your advise do help you don't need to doubt that.

I kinda hate this back and forth if i can't defend my choose and that is kinda unfair if you want to really help me i would argue.But i also agree that sometime it better to argue later and do the work.

Of course life is full of disagreement and personal preference and we gotta deal with that.If i argue alot it that i like to understand why i am doing something.I have to argue because like you said right now i am my own teacher.

Thank you for everything your doing for me even as harsh it might be on me i do hope that what your saying is making me stronger and not the other way around.

Posting my progress soon let just be clear that what gonna be posted was before this message since i am compiling instead of positing right away.

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Get a piece of concept art you think looks cool, make a finished piece that matches that quality as best you can. Use heaps of reference. prove to yourself that you can do it once, do it again and again and again.

pick up fundamentals as you produce purposeful work.
someone that can draw excellent anatomy and poses from their head is still not equipped to be a concept artist. It's about ideas and expressing them visually so they can be understood.

this fundamentals chasing is so aimless. just work backwards from the result you want.

What is so hard about collecting some images you aspire to paint like so you have a reference point of what you are trying to achieve?

I really want to give up trying to help but at the same time i hope you can succeed because you obviously are trying.


I'm speaking from experience, whatever fundamentals I picked up, it was 90% through pushing images further.
if you don't want another 7 years to go by without having any finished work, start now..

because its always going to be hard!

use reference to supplement the gaps in your knowledge and make something, you will never feel ready so just make it happen NOW

alright good luck  Shock

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(12-08-2020, 06:33 AM)xelfereht Wrote: Get a piece of concept art you think looks cool, make a finished piece that matches that quality as best you can. Use heaps of reference. prove to yourself that you can do it once, do it again and again and again.

pick up fundamentals as you produce purposeful work.
someone that can draw excellent anatomy and poses from their head is still not equipped to be a concept artist. It's about ideas and expressing them visually so they can be understood.

this fundamentals chasing is so aimless. just work backwards from the result you want.

What is so hard about collecting some images you aspire to paint like so you have a reference point of what you are trying to achieve?

I really want to give up trying to help but at the same time i hope you can succeed because you obviously are trying.


I'm speaking from experience, whatever fundamentals I picked up, it was 90% through pushing images further.
if you don't want another 7 years to go by without having any finished work, start now..

because its always going to be hard!

use reference to supplement the gaps in your knowledge and make something, you will never feel ready so just make it happen NOW

alright good luck  Shock
I am agreeingok with what your saying.Let not forget that i am also getting all kind of other advise i am trying to make my vision as clear as possible.I actually have almost finish collecting piece i like from various artist so you did not speak to a deaf hear as you migh think.

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So i did pretty near what i said i would be doing.So here a mix of 30sec & 2min gesture and 10min drawing.The 10minute one were the one where i felt i did not had the time to properly capture the pose i think it most due to my brain not being train to see the gesture i had a very stuctured approch at first for the 10min and in general so i tried to describe the contour instead but many i want to try to draw more in the fashion of a mannequin so as to have a better awareness of the volume since i for me contour are secondary to structure.


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